Scariest moment in my life

[Freddie the Swede]

This was really scary.

I was alone at the indoor range at my local club and was shooting Bill drills.

And when I'm alone at the range I usually don't unload between the drills at the different distances.

When walking between the 15 and the 10 yard line my gun pops out of my Safariland 011 holster and hits the ground.

BANG!!!! When it hits the ground it goes OFF and the shot hits the wall to my right.

What the f*ck I say to myself. The gun was on safe and I had been shooting more than 150 rounds prior to if falling out.

I must say that I have never in 20 years dropped my gun ever. Never happend.

When my legs stopped trempling I walk up to the gun on the floor and pick it up and unloads it and check it over.

To my astonishment the thumbsafety is no where to be found, just the right part of the ambi safety is left. Hammer is resting on the firing pin and there is a empty case in the chamber.

The case has a very lightly depressed primer like the firing pin just nudged it. Hardly any indentation on it.

What the f*uck just happend??? I check the floor for the missing safety and finds it several yards from the gun. It's not broken or anything just out of the gun.

I pack my stuff and goes home, too shaken to continue shooting.

I later check the gun and the hammer follows through when releasing the slide from the slide stop.

This has never happend before either, I have had the hammer following down to the half cock notch when adjusting the sear spring but never have i had it to full down.

What happend???? How can the safety fly off and let the gun go off??

The trigger was not pulled and the safety is fitted good. I've checked it several times and it's perfectly safe.

The trigger set has been in the gun for over ten year and it has never failed before.

Nor did it follow down when I checked the gun a couple of months ago.

The only scenario I can think of is that the gun hit the floor on the muzzle and then pushed the slide back which in turn popped the safety off and out of the gun.

Then the hammer falls for some strange reason. Then the hammer catches on the half cock notch but bounces off hitting the firing pin with enough force to set the primer off.... The rest is history.....

But the main question is how did it happen?? Can my scenario be true?

But just think of it. Someone could have died when I dropped the gun... Holy shit!!!

I wont shoot the gun again until I know what happend.

//Fredrik

PS. The trigger is set for around 2 1/4 Lbs and has takeup and a slight over travel.

It's been safe for over ten years have never had any problems before.

[BritinUSA]

If the gun hit muzzle first then there will be enough inertia to propel the firing pin forward. This fires the round. The slide tries to move back with extreme force and pops off the safeties.

[JThompson]

If the gun hit muzzle first then there will be enough inertia to propel the firing pin forward. This fires the round. The slide tries to move back with extreme force and pops off the safeties.

You think Brit?

I dunno what happened, but it's for sure a holy-shot moment. I'm always cold even when I practice by myself... It takes just a sec.

Edited April 20, 2009 by JThompson

[shooterbenedetto]

Theres a reason why our rules are there even when we just shoot for practice. Empty and show clear!

I have dropped my gun few times with a different holster and switched to CR speed. Even then, I don't holster

my gun and always bag it between stages or a walk thru. GLAD NO HOLES ON YOU AND NO ONE GOT KILLED!

Our sport is so dangerous that I always think that theres always the first time.

[yoshidaex]

If the gun hit muzzle first then there will be enough inertia to propel the firing pin forward. This fires the round. The slide tries to move back with extreme force and pops off the safeties.

You think Brit?

I dunno what happened, but it's for sure a holy-shot moment. I'm always cold even when I practice by myself... It takes just a sec.

I would think so too especially if there's a extended length firing pin.

[Jake Di Vita]

Out of curiosity...how did the gun "pop" out of your holster?

[G-ManBart]

First off, glad nobody got hurt!

If the gun hit muzzle first, the bullet would have gone into the floor, not the wall.

If the hammer is following under some of the situations you described, the safety, sear, sear spring are not fit properly.....plain and simple.

Safariland race holsters all suck. I used one back in the day (007), but the 011 and 012 are just a DQ/accident waiting to happen. Even with the tension set high a nudge on the gun in the wrong direction will send the gun flying. Why do you see almost everyone with a 012 use a strap around the holster and gun? Because they don't hold the gun securely and they know it. Get a Ghost or a Ribas or a Limcat, all of which have a positive lock that you can't pull through or knock the gun through. Yes, lots of people love CR Speed, and I intentionally didn't include them because I have two friends who've been DQ'd when their gun got knocked out of a "locked" CR Speed. Heck, one was on video so there's no doubt it was "locked"....just a bump in the wrong place and the gun went flying. R,

[Xfactor]

delete

Edited April 20, 2009 by Xfactor

[Xfactor]

If the gun hit muzzle first then there will be enough inertia to propel the firing pin forward. This fires the round. The slide tries to move back with extreme force and pops off the safeties.

That's what I was thinking too. I've heard of this possibility in a series 70 1911 (with no firing pin block)... there's nothing stopping the firing pin from moving forward after a sharp fall onto the muzzle. Your indoor range probably has a hard concrete floor, right? The inertia of the fall was apparently sufficient to send your firing pin forward with just enough force to ignite the primer. Then the cycling slide yanked your thumb safety off. (Was there any damage to your thumb safety lever?)

Really glad you're OK, and no one else was on the range to share in your moment of terror.

* Edit to add: Bart, good point about potential issues with the lock-up that allowed hammer follows... but as for this particular incident, I would think that with the thumb safety engaged, the sear couldn't move to allow the hammer to fall (?)

Edited April 20, 2009 by Xfactor

[bofe954]

The empty case in the chamber and the unlikelihood of something getting in the trigger guard would seem to point to the firing pin inertia scenario to me. The bullet in the wall vs the floor is weird but could it have ricocheted? I have a hard time getting my thumb safeties out of the gun, but maybe a bang with the thumb safety engaged would do it. Maybe your gun they are easy to get out?

It just seems unlikely that a drop would manage to disengage the thumb safety and pull the trigger.

You'll probably never know for sure.

This is another can of worms, but anyone care to comment on how worthless grip safeties are?

[G-ManBart]

If the gun hit muzzle first then there will be enough inertia to propel the firing pin forward. This fires the round. The slide tries to move back with extreme force and pops off the safeties.

That's what I was thinking too. I've heard of this possibility in a series 70 1911 (with no firing pin block)... there's nothing stopping the firing pin from moving forward after a sharp fall onto the muzzle. Your indoor range probably has a hard concrete floor, right? The inertia of the fall was apparently sufficient to send your firing pin forward with just enough force to ignite the primer. Then the cycling slide yanked your thumb safety off. (Was there any damage to your thumb safety lever?)

Really glad you're OK, and no one else was on the range to share in your moment of terror.

* Edit to add: Bart, good point about potential issues with the lock-up that allowed hammer follows... but as for this particular incident, I would think that with the thumb safety engaged, the sear couldn't move to allow the hammer to fall (?)

Again, if the gun hit muzzle first, so that the firing pin would move forward, the bullet would have gone into the ground....not into the wall to his left....right?

I hear you about the safety....it may not even be related, but if it's following under some circumstances, something isn't right. I'm wondering if it could have hit hard enough to bounce the sear because their wasn't enough tension on it.

Every time I read one of these kinds of things I wind up taking a gun apart and looking at the sear/hammer/safety relationship

[Xfactor]

Again, if the gun hit muzzle first, so that the firing pin would move forward, the bullet would have gone into the ground....not into the wall to his left....right?

I hear you about the safety....it may not even be related, but if it's following under some circumstances, something isn't right. I'm wondering if it could have hit hard enough to bounce the sear because their wasn't enough tension on it.

Yeah, the bullet would definitely have impacted the floor first... but off a hard concrete floor, I wouldn't be surprised if it ricocheted into the wall.

If the thumb safety was on, then it should block the sear from moving at all... if it budges even a few thousandths, not good! But if there was a little play in there, factoring in the slight disconnector issue resulting in occasional hammer follows, then maybe the impact could have worked the hammer loose off the sear

Every time I read one of these kinds of things I wind up taking a gun apart and looking at the sear/hammer/safety relationship

Me too! As it happens, I had mine all apart last night doing just that...

[G-ManBart]

Yeah, the bullet would definitely have impacted the floor first... but off a hard concrete floor, I wouldn't be surprised if it ricocheted into the wall.

I've actually seen an AD go into the concrete next to someone's feet...created a nice crater, but we couldn't find anything more than shrapnel....probably depends on the angle. That one was straight down so it pretty much exploded. If there's much of an angle between the bore line and the impact, I'm not sure the firing pin would move much.

I also wonder how likely it is for it to even hit on the muzzle since it's likely to be rotating when it hits...the guns I've seen dropped usually hit the rear sight or somewhere farther back as that's the heaviest part of the gun.

I keep wondering...if you dropped the gun on it's muzzle you'd think it would still be touching the floor when the bullet hit since it's only got to go about 6" or so. At 1300fps+ it's a pretty short flight!

I guess we're gonna have to get more details from Freddie. R,

[Kyle O]

Glad your ok. Why the round didn't eject? Maybe no pressure on the frame???

Think extreme limp wristing.

Why it went off. I can't tell you.

[Bear23]

Gun hit the floor, causing the firing pin to move forward to detonate the primer and bang. The shear force of the slide trying to go back broke the thumb safety off as it was in the up position. that's why the case was still in the chamber.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Bear23

[PINMAN44]

Bart I personally love the CR MODEL A because of its amazing retention unlocked and locked with the standard cup. Not the cup with the little titty at the bottom. I'm not to big on the lims and ghosts because of their unlocked retention capabilities. I love the security of the cr. I have tried ever which way to pop that gun out unlocked and it is very secure. I always lock my gun in though if doing a stage that requires movement to another box like Freddie mentioned. The funniest thing one time is I bombed a classifier because on the second stage I forgot to unlock the holster LOL! So I decided to burn it down lol.

Sorry for the thread drift guys,

Freddie I hope your ok, shit happens analyze went wrong, correct it, and move on.

[Xfactor]

I keep wondering...if you dropped the gun on it's muzzle you'd think it would still be touching the floor when the bullet hit since it's only got to go about 6" or so. At 1300fps+ it's a pretty short flight!

I was thinking about that too... with a hammer strike, the firing pin gets driven to ignite the primer in nearly an instant. But without a hammer strike, just the inertia alone moving the firing pin into the primer could conceivably be measurably slower... if so, maybe that slight delay would be enough to allow the gun to bounce a bit and create the gap/angle for the bullet to ricochet over to the wall (?)

[Freddie the Swede]

Some more info.

• Double and triple checked the safety and it's ok.
  
• Gun has a normal lenght firing pin and a standard spring.
  
• Checked the oldsear and the sear and hammer combination is probably the reason for the following. The sear has a cut in the middle that is supposed to get that hammer half cock hook. The hammer that was inside did not have a narrow hook. It has a wide hook. The new hammer has a narrow hook and will not follow. Tried it several times.
  
• Changed the hammer to another one that I have and it stopped following. Double and triple checked the function again.
  
• Checked the the new hammer sear combo again for hammer follow, and it has stopped.
  
• So I think that I have solved the hammer following problem.
  
• Still wondering about WHY the hammer followed on a cocked and locked gun.
  
• Still wondering WHY the safety flew off when the gun hit the ground. Checked the safety again and not apparent fault with it.
  
• Could it be so that when the gun hit the ground muzzle first (probably) the safety flew off (which is really wierd) then the gun rattled so hard when it fell on its side that the sear bounced and the hammer followed, caught the half cock notch, slipped over the half cock and then ignited the primer. (light intedation).
  

Back to the accident. I know that the gun when off when the barrel was pointing to the side wall as I saw the muzzle flash coming out from the comp. The comp holes where pointing towards me when the round went off.

It's pretty strange that I remeber the whole thing in slow motion. I probably missed getting the trigger guard inside the lock on the holster as I don't recall hearing the click from the lock. And when I took the first step forward I saw the gun falling out of the holster. I did not try to catch it as it was loaded (dont wanna stick my fingers on a falling loaded gun).

The actual impact to the wooden floor is a blur to me but I do rember seing it go off with a deep bang and then seing the flash coming out of the comp holes pointing towards me.

First thing that went trough my head was. WHERE did that bullet go. Is there anyone else around me.

Luckily my shooting buddy was not on the range anymore.

Thanks for your concerns and input but the gun is safe again but the incident still scares me.

Gotta find me a new holster. Will not go back to the Safariland 011 again.

Probably will use my old 007 that will catch the gun if the lock fails. Tried it several times yesterday and it will catch the gun 100%.

//Fredrik

Edited April 21, 2009 by Freddie the Swede

[scirocco38s]

First off, glad nobody got hurt!

If the gun hit muzzle first, the bullet would have gone into the floor, not the wall.

If the hammer is following under some of the situations you described, the safety, sear, sear spring are not fit properly.....plain and simple.

Safariland race holsters all suck. I used one back in the day (007), but the 011 and 012 are just a DQ/accident waiting to happen. Even with the tension set high a nudge on the gun in the wrong direction will send the gun flying. Why do you see almost everyone with a 012 use a strap around the holster and gun? Because they don't hold the gun securely and they know it. Get a Ghost or a Ribas or a Limcat, all of which have a positive lock that you can't pull through or knock the gun through. Yes, lots of people love CR Speed, and I intentionally didn't include them because I have two friends who've been DQ'd when their gun got knocked out of a "locked" CR Speed. Heck, one was on video so there's no doubt it was "locked"....just a bump in the wrong place and the gun went flying. R,

Amen. Crappy holster at best. Your better off with a mexican carry than an 011/012.

[JKSNIPER]

Glad you're ok dude.

New holster time.

JK

[cybrosh]

It's quite common in series 70's and models with no firing pin safeties, that the firing pin moves forward when the pistol hits a hard surface(usually, on the floor). I believe an extra power firing pin spring should do the job.

I was DQ'ed a couple of months ago after the backup gun went off while I was loading. The drill started with the gun at position 3 in the holster-Ribas(magazine inserted, not loaded), after the beep, drawed+racked the slide, and the gun went off(hammer fell after the slide). After examining the backup gun(didn't use it for almost a year! and took it to the match in the morning, since I've had difficulties with the main one), the hammer hooks appeared to be worn out. Didn't take a chance, replaced both the hammer and sear, even the safeties, just to be on the safe side. A little tuning, works like a charm. Next time, I'll check it before the match.

Anyways, I'm happy to hear you're ok. Must have been a terrifying experience...I would have probably soiled myself!

[G-ManBart]

It's quite common in series 70's and models with no firing pin safeties, that the firing pin moves forward when the pistol hits a hard surface(usually, on the floor). I believe an extra power firing pin spring should do the job.

I was DQ'ed a couple of months ago after the backup gun went off while I was loading. The drill started with the gun at position 3 in the holster-Ribas(magazine inserted, not loaded), after the beep, drawed+racked the slide, and the gun went off(hammer fell after the slide). After examining the backup gun(didn't use it for almost a year! and took it to the match in the morning, since I've had difficulties with the main one), the hammer hooks appeared to be worn out. Didn't take a chance, replaced both the hammer and sear, even the safeties, just to be on the safe side. A little tuning, works like a charm. Next time, I'll check it before the match.

Anyways, I'm happy to hear you're ok. Must have been a terrifying experience...I would have probably soiled myself!

If the gun hit on it's side the way Freddie describes it, I don't see any way it could have been caused by the firing pin moving due to striking a hard surface...that requires a muzzle down impact, not the gun hitting flat on it's side. R,

[ipscjoe]

Different scenario same result........I was RO'ng a guy once, he got to the last round to be fired on a stage and got a bulged 40 stuck in his gun.........Long story short, I tried the old "hold the slide and hit the grip" trick........It threw the firing pin into the primer, and blew lots of brass into my hand and into my chest..........It can happen, and I cringe evertime I see someone do it........That was the last time I tried to "help" someone

Edited April 22, 2009 by ipscjoe

[BritinUSA]

Just one other thought... I think that shooting alone is perhaps not a good idea. If you had been hurt badly then there would be no-one to call for medical help.

[ipscjoe]

It's quite common in series 70's and models with no firing pin safeties, that the firing pin moves forward when the pistol hits a hard surface(usually, on the floor). I believe an extra power firing pin spring should do the job.

I was DQ'ed a couple of months ago after the backup gun went off while I was loading. The drill started with the gun at position 3 in the holster-Ribas(magazine inserted, not loaded), after the beep, drawed+racked the slide, and the gun went off(hammer fell after the slide). After examining the backup gun(didn't use it for almost a year! and took it to the match in the morning, since I've had difficulties with the main one), the hammer hooks appeared to be worn out. Didn't take a chance, replaced both the hammer and sear, even the safeties, just to be on the safe side. A little tuning, works like a charm. Next time, I'll check it before the match.

Anyways, I'm happy to hear you're ok. Must have been a terrifying experience...I would have probably soiled myself!

If the gun hit on it's side the way Freddie describes it, I don't see any way it could have been caused by the firing pin moving due to striking a hard surface...that requires a muzzle down impact, not the gun hitting flat on it's side. R,

He says that the round was chambered and the safety on.......The only way for the gun to go off would be either the hammer failed, or firing pin interia.