Just how good are USPSA competitors?

[G-ManBart]

You forgot about shooter "C", the GM, who shoots it in 1.1 seconds with 2 A's for a hf of 9.0909 placing the other two shooters in D class

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines

I guess fast, sloppy hits works up to a point, but probably from B on up you'd better be getting most of the available points or somebody's gonna eat your lunch. Heck, B might even be a worst case scenario because there's always some "B" who could be an M if they didn't tank classifiers

[norbs007]

Heck, B might even be a worst case scenario because there's always some "B" who could be an M if they didn't tank classifiers

See it all the time; mostly due to a fumbled reload or a stinkin' miss.

[38supPat]

You forgot about shooter "C", the GM, who shoots it in 1.1 seconds with 2 A's for a hf of 9.0909 placing the other two shooters in D class

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines

I guess fast, sloppy hits works up to a point, but probably from B on up you'd better be getting most of the available points or somebody's gonna eat your lunch. Heck, B might even be a worst case scenario because there's always some "B" who could be an M if they didn't tank classifiers

Our pistol game is a bit different. Shooter A draws and places two deltas. One at 2 o'clock and one twenty inches away at 7 o'clock for 4 points. Ugly. Does it in 1.3 seconds. Shooter B draws and puts two an inch apart in the center of the A zone for 10 points. Beautiful. Does it in 3.5 seconds.

It's easy for shooter A to believe that speed always wins, because he took all day to shoot two A's instead of learning to see only what he needs to to shoot A's, nothing more, and got beat by shooter B.

It's easy for shooter B to believe speed wins, because he flung two shots at the target, got lucky hitting it, and beat shooter A, therefore speed wins.

In reality, they are both marginal shooters, one who hasn't learned to be efficient, and the other who hasn't learned to be precise, in the end they both lose.

[38supPat]

I'll include a real stage as an example, not a hypothetical.

This was a simple stage, just a single target at 10 yds. Draw 2, reload 2.

The top three shooters are USPSA ranked M's. Have a look at the points and the times.

Stage 3 -- Darned 2 Reload 2

HIT STAGE STAGE COMPETITOR

PTS TIME FACTOR POINTS PERCENT # Name

1 20 2.99 6.6890 20.0000 100.00 59 Harrison, Pat

2 20 3.16 6.3291 18.9240 94.62 38 A, Mike

3 20 3.27 6.1162 18.2875 91.44 30 E, Rob

4 19 3.22 5.9006 17.6429 88.21 110 R, Roel

5 19 3.50 5.4286 16.2314 81.16 86 G, Mike

6 19 3.64 5.2198 15.6071 78.04 104 L, Mike

7 20 3.91 5.1151 15.2941 76.47 35 P, Jerry

8 19 4.19 4.5346 13.5585 67.79 67 F, Jeff

9 19 4.46 4.2601 12.7377 63.69 94 P, Bruno

10 20 4.81 4.1580 12.4324 62.16 44 J, Ricky

11 16 4.10 3.9024 11.6683 58.34 97 Y, James

12 19 4.88 3.8934 11.6414 58.21 96 I, Enzo

13 19 4.97 3.8229 11.4306 57.15 102 I, Silvano

14 16 4.48 3.5714 10.6786 53.39 80 D, Janko

15 20 6.03 3.3167 9.9171 49.59 36 Z, Gerry

16 15 4.55 3.2967 9.8571 49.29 40 A, Antonio

17 20 6.11 3.2733 9.7872 48.94 34 P, Kathy

18 20 6.47 3.0912 9.2427 46.21 3 B, Rachel

19 17 6.14 2.7687 8.2785 41.39 101 V, Mario

20 16 7.86 2.0356 6.0865 30.43 74 T, JohnJohn

21 10 6.06 1.6502 4.9340 24.67 73 K, Paul

22 19 12.43 1.5286 4.5704 22.85 17 D, Caroline

23 18 13.88 1.2968 3.8775 19.39 10 P, Pam

24 5 9.71 0.5149 1.5396 7.70 24 G, Francis

25 0 5.98 0.0000 0.0000 0.00 111 P, Stephen

[mgood]

An actual match at my local club:

http://www.leaactionshooters.com/results/Mar09.txt

In Stage 1, I scored the most points but finished 20th out of 27.

In Stage 2, I scored the most points but finished 21st out of 27.

In Stage 3, I tied for 7th in points but finished 23rd out of 27.

In Stage 4, I had one 10 point penalty which placed me near the bottom even if the timer wasn't running.

In Stage 5 (the classifier 99-13), I had the most points, 119 out of a possible 120, but finished 22nd out of 27. (Should be 22.4565% when they get my membership info updated.)

Overall, I had the second most total points (after subtracting my penalty) but finished 23rd.

I'm slow, but generally hit what I aim at. People tell me I'm doing the right thing by shooting accurately and letting the speed come later rather than try to race through the course and have a lot of misses. But it can be discouraging to see the speed demons whip my tail.

I've been working hard to improve my speed. This forum has helped tremendously. That was just my second match. I feel like I've cut my times in half, on the draw, splits, and reloads, just this month, while sacrificing very little in accuracy. I don't have a timer to confirm that, but there's a match coming up Saturday.

Someone suggested I should be hitting 80-90% alphas. If less than 80%, slow down. If more than 90%, speed up. Any thoughts on that?

[G-ManBart]

Someone suggested I should be hitting 80-90% alphas. If less than 80%, slow down. If more than 90%, speed up. Any thoughts on that?

I'd say if you're shooting more than 95% of the points you're going to want to work on speed, but it's not really speed in shooting, it's speed in moving and doing everything else but shooting. The top shooters are typically going to shoot something like 90-95% of the points. If you're in that range, just work on movement, transitions, reloads and being generally efficient in everything you do. If you were shooting 80% of the available points I'd say it's time to work on learning to see what you need to see to shoot an A every time rather than the idea of "slowing down".

Don't forget that a lot of what makes for a fast time is stuff that you won't even begin to notice for a while. Why does shooter A shoot an array left to right or vice-versa? Well, it may be that they know they're faster in one direction. It may be that they're shooting in that order so they can leave on an easy target or enter on an easy target and take one or two shots while they're starting to move leaving or still moving coming in. The point is they've learned the variables, timed themselves on situations like that and know where they can pick up tenths of a second here and there....do that enough and next thing you know they're five seconds faster than you on a 20 second stage, but not once did they have to shoot a fast split so they're shooting most of the available points.

[38supPat]

An actual match at my local club:

http://www.leaactionshooters.com/results/Mar09.txt

In Stage 1, I scored the most points but finished 20th out of 27.

In Stage 2, I scored the most points but finished 21st out of 27.

In Stage 3, I tied for 7th in points but finished 23rd out of 27.

In Stage 4, I had one 10 point penalty which placed me near the bottom even if the timer wasn't running.

In Stage 5 (the classifier 99-13), I had the most points, 119 out of a possible 120, but finished 22nd out of 27. (Should be 22.4565% when they get my membership info updated.)

Overall, I had the second most total points (after subtracting my penalty) but finished 23rd.

I'm slow, but generally hit what I aim at. People tell me I'm doing the right thing by shooting accurately and letting the speed come later rather than try to race through the course and have a lot of misses. But it can be discouraging to see the speed demons whip my tail.

I've been working hard to improve my speed. This forum has helped tremendously. That was just my second match. I feel like I've cut my times in half, on the draw, splits, and reloads, just this month, while sacrificing very little in accuracy. I don't have a timer to confirm that, but there's a match coming up Saturday.

Someone suggested I should be hitting 80-90% alphas. If less than 80%, slow down. If more than 90%, speed up. Any thoughts on that?

You have to crawl before you walk. Looking at your times, you are thinking your way through the course, you have to think about every single thing you do, including when, where and how to fire each shot. Conscious thought takes time. As you learn to short cut the action of shooting each shot, your draw, reloads etc. you will become faster....but you have to work on it and WANT to be faster.

[Flexmoney]

Someone suggested I should be hitting 80-90% alphas. If less than 80%, slow down. If more than 90%, speed up. Any thoughts on that?

Yeah...get advice from somebody else.

[Duane Thomas]

"Everybody who reads comic books knows that Kirby Silver Surfer is the only true Silver Surfer. Now am I right or wrong?"

You're right.

[Duane Thomas]

Here is another angle to consider. How many shooters are out there that could easily be the best in the world if given the opportunity? For that matter who here knows for sure they might be if they could quit work for a few years and get ammo and guns handed to them for nothing?

Thing is, what makes the best the best is that they don't let anything get between them and greatness. If it's a choice between having a decent job that takes away from their shooting, or working a subsistence level, part-time gig that gives them barely more money that what they need to survive, then channeling every other bit of money, time and effort they possess into becoming the very best shooters they possibly can, that's what they do. So the argument, "They could be the best if only X didn't stop them" doesn't really wash for me. If they had the drive to be the best, they wouldn't let X stop them. period.

[Duane Thomas]

Whether or not someone is fast or slow has nothing to do with learning to shoot effectively.

In my experience as a firearms instructor for rifle, pistol and sniper it is MUCH more common in teaching guys to see people that will shoot WAAAAAY too fast for their current skill than it is to see a guy take his time and try and make every round count.

Occasionally in USPSA you'll see someone show up at a club match who just has innately fast reflexes and excellent hand-eye coordination, and, with absolutely no training, they can fire a handgun as fast as the best shooters there, at least if we're just talking splits. Such people, sadly, don't tend to last long in the sport. They tend to be people who are used to easily excelling at any athletic endeavor, and, out at the USPSA match because they don't really know how to shoot, they're just running on natural talent, they get really beat up by the other shooters because they're not hitting anything. Their ego can't handle that, so they quit. On the other hand you have the guys who come in with great reflexes and hand-eye coordination who have the discipline, and the dedication to long-term, hard practice that is required to bring their accuracy, gun handling and movement skills up to the level of their speed. When that happens you wind up with a Jerry Barnhart or a Jethro Dionisio, and then you've got someone who's very, very hard to beat.

[Duane Thomas]

Gunny:" Let me use small words.....You can't MISS fast enough to win."

Me: "Let me also use small words....But in this sport you can hit slow enough to lose."

[Duane Thomas]

Has any major match been won with a mike/miss?

Oh yeah. I recall years ago reading Robbie Leatham's comment after his latest-at-the-time national victory how happy was this was his first national victory where he didn't miss a single target.

[Duane Thomas]

Freak speed and ugly hits win this game every single time.

Well, right up until you run into someone just as fast who has good hits.

[No Luck]

A comment about the Money/Desire/Talent debate…

My son and a friend of his starting shooting on their Jr. High Trap and Skeet team (SCTP) together. Everyone thought my son was a born natural, while his friend was less then stellar. Both had parents willing to sacrifice a lot so they could excel; I gave up shooting USPSA (and several other things) so I could afford to let him shot absolutely as much as he wanted, have professional coaching & etc. Both excelled rapidly and in a few months were clobbering shooters on the High School team; they were 12 at the time. But then they had a divergence. My son’s friend’s desire and willingness to sacrifice “play” time to work at being a better shooter and competing to win was truly inspiring. My son; however, didn’t have that same desire. His raw talent got him quickly to where he could consistently hit 97-99 out of 100 on the trap field, but he was unwilling to put in the extra time to but him at the top. In the end, he gave up shooting trap and skeet after 3 years while his friend travels all over the country winning in his age/skill bracket.

I guess what I’m saying, in the end, is desire/determination/sacrifice will overcome most things in life.

[JKSNIPER]

"I've been working hard to improve my speed. This forum has helped tremendously. That was just my second match. I feel like I've cut my times in half, on the draw, splits, and reloads, just this month, while sacrificing very little in accuracy. I don't have a timer to confirm that, but there's a match coming up Saturday."

I'd call this improvement through practice.

True I tend to look at it from a "tacticool" point of view and forget we're talking about a game and not shooting on the 2 way range.

My apologies.

JK

[Jman]

None needed, I enjoy your prospectives.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

People tell me I'm doing the right thing by shooting accurately and letting the speed come later rather than try to race through the course and have a lot of misses. But it can be discouraging to see the speed demons whip my tail.

The speed demons aren't shooting appreciably faster than you --- but they're probably making better plans for attacking the stage and executing them more smoothly. Breakdown of a stage takes a little while to learn --- think of it as your strategy. Right now, you don't know what kind of time it takes for you to execute certain things --- you'll find out through experimentation.

When planning your run, you should be constantly asking yourself "What's my move?" Do I stand here at the start and shoot these four targets, or do I take them on the move? To I take them stationary from somewhere farther downrange where I need to go anyway to shoot something I can't see from here? As I'm approaching this port, which target do I see first? The second from the right --- O.K., that means I shoot them out of order. Does it change if I approach this port from a different direction? Which will be faster? Yes, we really think about the order of every shot we're going to take, and not just on what targets we think we can get between hitting an activator and engaging the mover. We know what we can do --- and from that knowing can make the plan that gives us the best possible time while retaining max points....

Generally you want to shoot the targets at the very earliest moment that you can guarantee an Alpha; unless for some reason you'll have another opportunity at the A-zone later in the stage when it will be an easier/faster shot, and this assumes that the movement there won't cost you anything....

Find the best shooter in your little pond --- ask him to help you with stage planning.

I'm slow, but generally hit what I aim at. Someone suggested I should be hitting 80-90% alphas. If less than 80%, slow down. If more than 90%, speed up. Any thoughts on that?

When it comes to the actual shooting --- let go of the concept of speed --- note that this does not mean that you should embrace slow. Let what you see dictate how rapidly you shoot. Roll into position, gun covering a three yard target, front sight on the A-zone --- it's time to shoot; bring the gun up on a 15 yard partial and can't find the front sight? Time to find it.....

Getting good at that --- patience, hitting the trigger without disturbing the sights, reading the sights to know where the bullet went, knowing how much of a sight picture you need for a given target --- all that's as much of an art as stage breakdown....

I've been working hard to improve my speed. This forum has helped tremendously. That was just my second match. I feel like I've cut my times in half, on the draw, splits, and reloads, just this month, while sacrificing very little in accuracy. I don't have a timer to confirm that, but there's a match coming up Saturday.

Working on shooting speed is good --- if your accuracy isn't suffering. It's only part of the picture --- so celebrate your achievements, but don't be disappointed if your match standings don't reflect a massive improvement immediately.....

[j1b]

I've been debating posting this - one because it's thread drift and two cause it's slightly controversial -

On this whole skill vs desire thing. I can't stand that it's black and white as I've read through the posts. It's literally driven me crazy today. When I first started reading the posts about it I was like yeah - I see some challenges here but no biggie . . . and then they went on -

This morning I could barely stand it. So me being me - I gotta give my $.02 that with a dollar won't get you much of anything.

It's both. It's all. And it's none.

This discussion is so complex it requires eighteen layers just to get to the center. First is this definition of "getting there" is. Is it GM? Top 5 at a nationals? National champion? There is a REMARKABLE difference between just those three things. We can talk about that later.

First, yes someone can see success in nearly any game and do it based on pure talent if they possess that talent. Who falls in this bucket? John Daly. Yes, he's a golfer. I get it. But he is a shining example of basically a pathetic excuse for an athlete that won TWO majors and did it with not much dedication. I won't say practice, I'm sure he practiced. But not a lot of dedication. It's this lack of dedication that most likely caused his distinct fall from grace. Nevertheless he did something a great many golfers with a ton more dedication will never do, and many would contend it was based off his raw talent.

That said, it is generally accepted that you have to work your ass off in order to accell. My experience in the game is more directly linked to this path. Not so much today, but in the past. It is NOT a guaranteed cure all though. You work your ass off on the wrong things and you'll only get worse. The prime example is the shooter that constantly and consistently practices what they like and are good at. Fine. Great. THey'll do great at that stuff. But will always suffer where they don't put in the time and dedication. Somewhere, sometime, somehow that'll bite them in the butt. Always does.

The hard work road is a much clearer path, but people can't go about it mindlessly. It takes some brain matter. And if you aren't willing to analyze, dig into the details, take self criticism, give self criticism and a whole list of other things then you can practice till the cows come home - it's still road kill stew for dinner.

The final chapter is the goals. This is the tough part. I'd reach out and say for a large percentage of people that if you work really really hard, even if not always on the right things, that GM or M is certainly achievable. There are components of the game that will simply become more efficient. You'll get better - you'll be better and then you'll make that cut. It is something I just believe can happen for a bunch of folks - PARTICULARLY people on this forum.

If the goal is to place top 5 at nationals, that's tougher. To me, that means you have to be able to win nationals. Not just "have a chance" - I mean you have to be an odds on strong possibility to win the match. People need to start the week out watching you because you're a potential. You basically have to be a national champion, without the title yet. And here I do believe you have to work your ass off. And to some degree you have to have some natural talent or ability. Maybe that talent is a mental toughness. Maybe it's quick reflexes, maybe it's superior eye sight or maybe it's incredibly steady hands. But there's got to be a break or two going your way - even if you don't know what that break or two is.

To win? I don't know. I can't say, because I haven't done it (at a nationals). Which means, to me, that it basically comes down to a little bit of luck breaking your way, and having the strongest mental game on earth to insure that no matter how the luck breaks you persevere. That's just my interpretation. The hard work and talent thing are probably the same as the top 5 guy. But there is some undefined difference that makes the difference. It is there - I know because I've seen it. I saw it yesterday when Tiger made a 16 foot putt for a win. It is tangible when I watch it. But I've yet to be able to make that converstion myself. Maybe one day.

So that's my $.02. I just had to get it out - sorry to pee in the cheerios of any or all posters on the topic. This game is tough. There is no concrete road to the top. Even Everest has several paths to the top. Most don't get there. Many do though, because they picked the path that best suited how they could attack the mountain.

Jack

Edited March 30, 2009 by j1b

[mgood]

I move ok. Once upon a time, I was a good athlete and a very fast runner. I'm 40 now and don't work out enough. But I can still move quick for the short periods of time we're talking about in a course of fire. That doesn't help me much when the mag change takes longer than the two or three steps I need to make to get to the next position. I've found that I'm faster by walking and changing mags cleanly on the move than by getting there in a hurry and bumbling the mag change causing a standing reload.

My stage planning is coming along. I shoot single stack, so most of it is centered around where to change mags. Shoot these targets and change mags as I move over here, shoot these and change mags as I move over there. . . . I've been getting complements on my planning when things work out as planned. But I still manage to make some goofs that blow the whole thing. Miss a plate and it means these targets will take nine shots instead of eight and the whole plan just imploded because I'm looking at a standing reload. Thinking on the move and modifying the plan as it evolves will, I think, come with more experience.

It's the actual shooting where I'm much slower than others of equal experience. I grew up shooting mostly rifles slow fire. Take a breath, let part of it out, squeeeeeze the trigger, if the sight pictures starts to shake, let that breath out and start over. That obviously doesn't carry over well to practical shooting.

Slow fire, if I have a bad shot, I know about where it went even if I can't see the hole in the target. A good shot is what I expected and I give no more thought to it. I don't think "that was a good shot." It's just gone, I know it went where it was supposed to without really thinking about it. I'm trying to figure out if this is similar to what's known around here as "calling your shot."

But for me to do that, I'm taking 3-4 seconds per shot even on fairly close targets.

When I started competing, I could shoot maybe one shot per second and put them all in the A zone at say 7 yards, maybe 10 yards. If I tried firing 2 shots per second, maybe I'd hit somewhere on the target. This is all standing still and firing at a stationary target.

Two things where I think I doubled my speed in one 50-round practice session after reading some clues here:

1. I needed a tighter grip and also slightly changed my hand position. (Still working on getting the hand position just right to work for me.) Shooting a rifle slowly, I was taught not so much to hold the gun as to just let it rest on my hands. I do grip a pistol more than that, but maybe not enough. (I have a pretty strong grip for a little guy, but maybe I'm just not using enough of it.)

2. Most important was all this talk about "seeing the sights rise." WTH? I've been shooting for thirty-something years. I've very rarely, if ever, seen the sights rise. I read someone's post saying that many people blink and don't realize it, for years. Was I blinking as the shot broke? I wasn't sure.

So I went to the range with the goal of concentrating on keeping my eyes open. Secondary focus was on a firmer grip and trying a couple of ideas on how to better my hand position.

I didn't even put a target up. there was a 2x4 about 12 or so inches long laying on the berm. From 40-50 feet away I just shredded the thing firing every bit of two shots per second in complete control. I see the sights start coming up and I'm already starting to work against that and pull the front sight back to the target before it even tops out. I was amazed at the improvement from the first magazine. I fired forty-some-odd rounds and rarely missed that board. the ones that did miss were still close enough to dislodge the dirt around it and make the board roll.

So just keeping my eyes open and taking a little firmer grip was a huge step forward in speed. I still have a long ways to go to catch up, but I know the direction to go now.

At home, I've been practicing my draw, acquire front sight, squeeze trigger . . . over and over every day. It used to be draw, stop, find front sight, put it on target, trigger. Now when I draw, the front sight is coming right to where I'm looking and my focus shifts quickly (still not quickly enough) to the front sight and I pull the trigger. Getting there.

And I've been practicing mag changes, standing as well as moving. Hold sight picture . . . MOVE OUT! Change mags on the go, acquire new target, fire! I'm seeing a lot of improvement there.

In matches, it's still kinda herky-jerky, move out, change mags, KEEP MOVING DAMNIT, shoot stop, shoot more, move. Wait, did I shoot that target over there? Too many things for the mind to process at once. When some of the basic functions start happening without conscious thought, I'll be much better. That will come with practice and experience I think.

[Calmwater]

I have to have fundamentals and be shooting my points before I EVEN KNOW WHAT I NEED TO DO FASTER. No matter how fast the processor works if my programming is bad its bad....................

[38supPat]

I've been debating posting this - one because it's thread drift and two cause it's slightly controversial -

So that's my $.02. I just had to get it out - sorry to pee in the cheerios of any or all posters on the topic. This game is tough. There is no concrete road to the top. Even Everest has several paths to the top. Most don't get there. Many do though, because they picked the path that best suited how they could attack the mountain.

Jack

Glad someone said it!

I think perhaps there needs to be a distinction between "practice" and "training"

As you say, many shooters go to the range and shoot the same drill over and over. Never training on what they don't like, never doing what they do like a different way to see what happens.

I'll have do dig up one of my driving books, `Speed Secrets 5, The Complete Driver` by Ross Bentley, the topic is what it takes to make it to the "Top" , it applys directly to top level shooters too. I'll look it up but simply put a complete athlete incorporates having the following skills, racing, testing, physical, mental, marketing, career. Change it to Shooting, training, physical, mental, marketing and career and it covers many of the top shooters, people like TGO, Doug K. Julie G. etc.

Under what it takes to make it, there are 5 factors, Talent, commitment, money, people and a plan. If you don't have all 5 you'll only see limited success.

[VegasOPM]

Wow.... this thread has taken off in a lot of directions.

[h2osport]

Wow.... this thread has taken off in a lot of directions.

I was thinking the same thing. This thread could probably be split into about three other interesting threads>

Randy

[dqshooter]

I think you are correct in the fact that there are two threads here. The first i think is just simply competion shooters and duty shooters are different animals. Competition shooters shoot because we enjot it and it is fun, most officers shoot to stay current. They are two very different styles, I will say this (please do noit beat me up to bad) most officers think they can shhot really well. They usually change their mind when they shoot at even at a club match, major matches are a different story. I have nothing but respect for LE and some of them are really good, iI happen to know a little about dynamic entry and cover principle, our sport and their training are truly apples/oranges.

As for the second part of this; if you are not willing to put the range time in you will never be able to develope any real talent god given or otherwise. Talk to any of the GM, M and A class guys and see how much pratice they put in. I have watched Max, Travis, Lee, David S. and many other G's shoot for years know and they always put their game face on and come to win, think like a winner and you will be a winner. Just some thoughts, Shootem as you see'em.