Standards at IRC

[Viggen]

The top shooters with Far-Near in will be the top shooters with Far-Near out. It's not going to make a bit of difference to good shooters. It may be that not so adequate shooters will feel better about themselves.

And practicing a stage? Grooving in technique? I thought that was what this game was all about, finding the limits of what you can do well. And if someone is willing to take the time and money to set up a stage and practice, gosh, isn't that what it's all about? If someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to practice, they shouldn't expect earth shattering performances in any sport or activity in life. I guess I should add that I hope Standards return next year.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Viggen

[Carmoney]

The top shooters with Far-Near in will be the top shooters with Far-Near out. It's not going to make a bit of difference to good shooters. It may be that not so adequate shooters will feel better about themselves.

And practicing a stage? Grooving in technique? I thought that was what this game was all about, finding the limits of what you can do well. And if someone is willing to take the time and money to set up a stage and practice, gosh, isn't that what it's all about? If someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to practice, they shouldn't expect earth shattering performances in any sport or activity in life. I guess I should add that I hope Standards return next year.

There's a huge difference between working hard to develop excellent shooting skills, and setting up one particular stage and running it over and over until you have the timing down perfectly.

What if they allowed shooters to show up a week ahead of time and shoot all the actual stages, and practice the entire match over and over? You know some guys would do it, in order to give themselves an advantage. But would that really make them the best shooters? No way.

This is what Bianchi and Steel Challenge have become, in effect. If you don't have access to shoot the entire match over and over ahead of time, you might as well not bother showing up unless you just like to shoot for fun. A few years ago, Steel Challenge was won by a Japanese dude who can't even own or fire a handgun in his home country. He did it by coming over here a month early and shooting all the Steel Challenge stages over and over and over with borrowed equipment, doing nothing else for literally a month. Talk about getting grooved in! I guess you could applaud his desire and dedication, but put him in any other kind of competitive shooting situation, and he wouldn't even know what to do.

Or so it seems to me.

[sargenv]

The question I have is, we call ICORE a blend of Bianchi, Steel Challenge, and USPSA/IPSC.. Bianchi and Steel have always been pretty much a rote course of fire while IPSC/USPSA has been field courses. With the changing of the standards, we've removed part of the feel of the Bianchi/Steel/USPSA-IPSC and made it more like Steel/USPSA-IPSC. There are ways to practice accuracy at distance just as there are ways to practice close range with rapid reloads. I will continue to train on the traditional standards since the gun handling that it represents is what I feel is missing by running all field courses and what I like to refer to as hoser stages. I like fast movement stages as much as anyone, but I also like courses where your head needs to be screwed on tight and there is some additional pressure of a fixed time period to force you to manage your time wisely.

[Carmoney]

C'mon Vince, "running all field courses" has never been suggested as a serious option here.

Long-range standards, fixed time pressure, anti-hoser stages, whatever you want--bring it all on. Just mix it up so it's not always the same thing, for chrissake.

[cliffwalsh]

The question I have is, we call ICORE a blend of Bianchi, Steel Challenge, and USPSA/IPSC.. Bianchi and Steel have always been pretty much a rote course of fire while IPSC/USPSA has been field courses. With the changing of the standards, we've removed part of the feel of the Bianchi/Steel/USPSA-IPSC and made it more like Steel/USPSA-IPSC. There are ways to practice accuracy at distance just as there are ways to practice close range with rapid reloads. I will continue to train on the traditional standards since the gun handling that it represents is what I feel is missing by running all field courses and what I like to refer to as hoser stages. I like fast movement stages as much as anyone, but I also like courses where your head needs to be screwed on tight and there is some additional pressure of a fixed time period to force you to manage your time wisely.

Vince

I'd bet there were no 50 yard shots at the Canadian Nationals.

[sargenv]

I'd bet there were no 50 yard shots at the Canadian Nationals.

Actually, there were two.. one a Virginia count stage, one a fixed time stage and at those damn turtles. And it wasn't yards, it was meters..

Edited April 3, 2009 by sargenv

[jmax]

Cliffwalsh, The Candian's had tough 50 M standards back in the 80's and a particularly difficult one in 82 at Pitt Polder outside of Vancouver. By the way I won that match because of those difficult standards that were a surprise to us Yanks that came up to shoot, greatly disappointing Murray and the rest.

Mike,

The statistics do not support your straw man contentions on F&N. By the way, the Japanese lad that won the Steel Challenge practiced all year shooting one of those fancy pellet guns a reduced range, one setup exactly like the "borrowed" pistol he shot at Piru. It did not take only a month of practice to win the Challenge. Burn the straw men down.

[Carmoney]

Mike,

The statistics do not support your straw man contentions on F&N.

What statistics, John?

[Viggen]

My approach to Standars and it wont change for this year, is in May, I will set up and make sure my sight is set up for 50 yard, then make the adjustments for close in shooting. From there make sure that I can do the reload in the 10 seconds at the 10 and 3 yard line. In all, I'll run it about 5 or 6 times. Vic's approach and the Mesa group will hammer it out for several months. As far as Jerry and i'm assuming Rob L who is mentioned, they have the Bianchi that they are getting ready for, which happens a couple of weeks before the IRC. Go figure that one disipline will benifit another huh?. What am I saying, bianchi is a set shooting style that should be scorned for requiring disapline and accuracy to win.

I guess for all the bitchers out here, why don't we do like the double tap match and just have a big lottery, where peformance doesn't matter anymore.

discipline and practice - bad........those cheaters.....

LOL

I firmly believe that Far-Near will return shortly, like next year. The best folks, God forbid that they practice, will do well again this year, just like before. True, it makes those who suck at Far-Near not have to face their weakness but they still won't finish any better. And let's not put in any more run-n-gun stages for that leads to another level of whining.

[jmax]

Mike,

I have had discussions with the ICORE statistician on several occasions at local shoots and will I'm sure it will be discussed in detail at the IRC. There is very little dither over the years in individual finish when F&N is in or out of the final score. From the numbers I have seen a typical finish change for the middle of the population say within 3 sigma is +/- 2% and little if any change at the top or bottom of the score distributions.

People in the middle don't like it because it is what embodies a standard exercise if it is supposed to be impossible to master and to evaluate ones overall skill under match pressure. Far & Near is certainly that and embodies all basic skills necessary for revolver mastery and identifies where individual shooters need improvement.

The bottom line is if an individual practices F&N their overall skill levle improves and F&N is just a part of the match as opposed to sway Bianchi or the Steel Challenge where the entire match can be set up for constant practice.

Come to the IRC but once again and discuss the course in detail.

[Bubber]

If this horse ain't dead yet I'll kick him one more time. I took the 07 results and took out the standard scores. Jerry and Nils were unchanged. The first five were still the first five with Gene, Vic, And Mark trading places in the top five. I remained the same. And I thought the Standards were what helped me out. I then took out stage 10, another big point (long run) stage. There was more movement with this stage out. Nils and Vic fiipped and Markd went to 6th place and Pat Hogue moved up to 5th. Oh yea I moved up one spot. The Standards is a hard stage as it embodies all the skills required in shooting Revolvers with the added pressure of a timed event. With the par time removed it still will be a difficult stage. And those that practice it will do well...on that stage wich should translate to a better overall performance on the rest of the stages. Should, I said. With that said... I better go dryfire. And yes I know it is not fair that I put time in practicing the standards, but I am a gamer later rdd

[Viggen]

If this horse ain't dead yet I'll kick him one more time. I took the 07 results and took out the standard scores. Jerry and Nils were unchanged. The first five were still the first five with Gene, Vic, And Mark trading places in the top five. I remained the same. And I thought the Standards were what helped me out. I then took out stage 10, another big point (long run) stage. There was more movement with this stage out. Nils and Vic fiipped and Markd went to 6th place and Pat Hogue moved up to 5th. Oh yea I moved up one spot. The Standards is a hard stage as it embodies all the skills required in shooting Revolvers with the added pressure of a timed event. With the par time removed it still will be a difficult stage. And those that practice it will do well...on that stage wich should translate to a better overall performance on the rest of the stages. Should, I said. With that said... I better go dryfire. And yes I know it is not fair that I put time in practicing the standards, but I am a gamer later rdd

Amen

[underlug]

If this horse ain't dead yet I'll kick him one more time. I took the 07 results and took out the standard scores. Jerry and Nils were unchanged. The first five were still the first five with Gene, Vic, And Mark trading places in the top five. I remained the same. And I thought the Standards were what helped me out. I then took out stage 10, another big point (long run) stage. There was more movement with this stage out. Nils and Vic fiipped and Markd went to 6th place and Pat Hogue moved up to 5th. Oh yea I moved up one spot. The Standards is a hard stage as it embodies all the skills required in shooting Revolvers with the added pressure of a timed event. With the par time removed it still will be a difficult stage. And those that practice it will do well...on that stage wich should translate to a better overall performance on the rest of the stages. Should, I said. With that said... I better go dryfire. And yes I know it is not fair that I put time in practicing the standards, but I am a gamer later rdd

ICORE is supposed to be a blend of disciplines. Bianchi and Steel Challenge, a couple of the integral disciplines, involve stages that are shot "over and over".

Standards test basic skills. I doubt if anyone could create a better standard that involve more skills than the current one. Creating an "interesting" or "different" standard is Quixotic in that you are measuring the same basic skills.

If just setting up the stage and practicing this stage was determinative of anything we would have been rid of it long ago as it has been promised when someone zeroed it the stage would be discontinued. A lot of people have that option, but, you can get just as much out of shooting 50 yard shots within the time limit or on reduced targets at a shorter range and being creative in developing the other requisite skills. It is just that good a test, and, barely out of the reach of the best.

When I first came to the IRC a wise person once told me that if all you did to prepare for the IRC was shoot the Standards, you would be prepared for about anything they could throw at you. I have, of course, spent 10 years not following that good advice.

At my level, getting the shots off in the time limit is not the problem (if you remember to unlock your holster). It is shooting skill and load preparation. I think the new rule will hurt as many people at the middle and lower end as they rush to get off shots and a lower time rather than take the extra time to get the better hit. But, that's ok.

It's all ok. It's Nelson's match. I do wonder about who he polled about the change. I know I wasn't. That's ok, too. It seems that people I know that have attended a lot in the past are resistant to the change, but, no one would not attend because of it.

Hope we all make it there. The members meeting should be interesting (for once)

[Carmoney]

If this horse ain't dead yet I'll kick him one more time. I took the 07 results and took out the standard scores. Jerry and Nils were unchanged.

In Limited Division, the actual 2007 results were:

1. Nils

2. John Bag.

3. John Burk.

4. Elliot

5. Mike

If you took out the F&N, they would have looked like this:

1. Nils

2. Mike

3. Elliot

4. John Burk.

5. John Bag.

So I guess that supports the overall point that the same shooters are going to finish "at the top" regardless of whether the standards are part of the match or not. But within that group of shooters, it made a substantial difference to everybody except Nils.

[Pin Shooter]

Which, correct me if I am wrong, affects 80% of the top 5 placings in Limited. Seems like a significant difference to at least 4 of the 5 in this example to me. Remember that there a lots of tiny battles in each class at the IRC. Your top 10% in each class are clawing for the gold ring, and in my opinion, the standards ( being 1 stage ) weighs to heavily on the outcome of a match.

Something else to consider, a lot of people keep saying that ICORE is a blend of Steel, and IPSC and Bianchi, if this is the case, then why are the Far and Near Standards so much harder than the Practical at the Bianchi Cup. Far tighter times and greater rewards for accuracy. At the Cup an A gives the shooter 10 points, and X's are only used as a tie breaker. In fact, even the mover is more shooter friendly than the satndards in my opinion ( and no, I don't have a mover to practise on ).

Someone suggested that we should have the Standards as a side match. There was talk of a $1000 dollar bounty to the first shooter that could zero the standards. I bet if you ran it as a side match, you would be lucky to get a dozen shooters to try it, even with a large cash payout available. There is a reason that it hasn't been zeroed yet....can anyone guess....?

[JohnRodriguez]

Which, correct me if I am wrong, affects 80% of the top 5 placings in Limited. Seems like a significant difference to at least 4 of the 5 in this example to me. Remember that there a lots of tiny battles in each class at the IRC. Your top 10% in each class are clawing for the gold ring, and in my opinion, the standards ( being 1 stage ) weighs to heavily on the outcome of a match.

Something else to consider, a lot of people keep saying that ICORE is a blend of Steel, and IPSC and Bianchi, if this is the case, then why are the Far and Near Standards so much harder than the Practical at the Bianchi Cup. Far tighter times and greater rewards for accuracy. At the Cup an A gives the shooter 10 points, and X's are only used as a tie breaker. In fact, even the mover is more shooter friendly than the satndards in my opinion ( and no, I don't have a mover to practise on ).

Someone suggested that we should have the Standards as a side match. There was talk of a $1000 dollar bounty to the first shooter that could zero the standards. I bet if you ran it as a side match, you would be lucky to get a dozen shooters to try it, even with a large cash payout available. There is a reason that it hasn't been zeroed yet....can anyone guess....?

More practice???

One thing that the late Dave Bellis would have use do, was to fumble a reload at the 10 and 3 yard line to make sure we knew how hard you can push yourself and not make any penalties and get all your shoots off.

I think that the people who are actually going to shoot the IRC should be the ones who are worried about the standard, and should practice it, since it does have all the requirements to shoot accuratly.

As far as the shooters meeting, which I have only attended 2 in the years that I have shot the IRC, you will see a whole lot of people who are more worried about other shooters and how they shoot, than how they themselves shoot. these are the people who should really be out practicing, since bitching don't get you to the prize table any quicker.

[underlug]

Which, correct me if I am wrong, affects 80% of the top 5 placings in Limited. Seems like a significant difference to at least 4 of the 5 in this example to me. Remember that there a lots of tiny battles in each class at the IRC. Your top 10% in each class are clawing for the gold ring, and in my opinion, the standards ( being 1 stage ) weighs to heavily on the outcome of a match.

Something else to consider, a lot of people keep saying that ICORE is a blend of Steel, and IPSC and Bianchi, if this is the case, then why are the Far and Near Standards so much harder than the Practical at the Bianchi Cup. Far tighter times and greater rewards for accuracy. At the Cup an A gives the shooter 10 points, and X's are only used as a tie breaker. In fact, even the mover is more shooter friendly than the satndards in my opinion ( and no, I don't have a mover to practise on ).

Someone suggested that we should have the Standards as a side match. There was talk of a $1000 dollar bounty to the first shooter that could zero the standards. I bet if you ran it as a side match, you would be lucky to get a dozen shooters to try it, even with a large cash payout available. There is a reason that it hasn't been zeroed yet....can anyone guess....?

I'll go with practice, too. I've heard it has been done in practice. I wonder if this year if anyone will go into negative figures on the stage. No one actually takes all the time to shoot the stage.

[briley1911]

Hi Guys and Gals,

Nelson Dymond here..."Far and Near Standards" will not be shot at the IRC this year. It is replaced by "Timeless Far and Near". It is still "Shots Limited", but the Par Times have been eliminated. I know my decision is not going to make everyone happy, but it will make the stage a lot friendlier without the Par Times. Now you have to make a choice, shoot it fast or slow down and go for the Xs. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...good luck.

BTW, as some of you have noticed there are 3, yes three Texas Stars in the match this year. In years past, I have been against Texas Stars in a Major Match, but if by now you have not shot a Texas Star, you have been living in the dark ages.

Practice...practice...practice,

Nelson Dymond

2009 IRC Match Director

[hearthco]

Which, correct me if I am wrong, affects 80% of the top 5 placings in Limited. Seems like a significant difference to at least 4 of the 5 in this example to me. Remember that there a lots of tiny battles in each class at the IRC. Your top 10% in each class are clawing for the gold ring, and in my opinion, the standards ( being 1 stage ) weighs to heavily on the outcome of a match.

Something else to consider, a lot of people keep saying that ICORE is a blend of Steel, and IPSC and Bianchi, if this is the case, then why are the Far and Near Standards so much harder than the Practical at the Bianchi Cup. Far tighter times and greater rewards for accuracy. At the Cup an A gives the shooter 10 points, and X's are only used as a tie breaker. In fact, even the mover is more shooter friendly than the satndards in my opinion ( and no, I don't have a mover to practise on ).

Someone suggested that we should have the Standards as a side match. There was talk of a $1000 dollar bounty to the first shooter that could zero the standards. I bet if you ran it as a side match, you would be lucky to get a dozen shooters to try it, even with a large cash payout available. There is a reason that it hasn't been zeroed yet....can anyone guess....?

I'll go with practice, too. I've heard it has been done in practice. I wonder if this year if anyone will go into negative figures on the stage. No one actually takes all the time to shoot the stage.

Maybe Im confused (probably), but how can one zero the stage or go negative, if they take LONGER than 36 seconds to shoot 36 Xs?

[revoman]

Which, correct me if I am wrong, affects 80% of the top 5 placings in Limited. Seems like a significant difference to at least 4 of the 5 in this example to me. Remember that there a lots of tiny battles in each class at the IRC. Your top 10% in each class are clawing for the gold ring, and in my opinion, the standards ( being 1 stage ) weighs to heavily on the outcome of a match.

Something else to consider, a lot of people keep saying that ICORE is a blend of Steel, and IPSC and Bianchi, if this is the case, then why are the Far and Near Standards so much harder than the Practical at the Bianchi Cup. Far tighter times and greater rewards for accuracy. At the Cup an A gives the shooter 10 points, and X's are only used as a tie breaker. In fact, even the mover is more shooter friendly than the satndards in my opinion ( and no, I don't have a mover to practise on ).

Someone suggested that we should have the Standards as a side match. There was talk of a $1000 dollar bounty to the first shooter that could zero the standards. I bet if you ran it as a side match, you would be lucky to get a dozen shooters to try it, even with a large cash payout available. There is a reason that it hasn't been zeroed yet....can anyone guess....?

I'll go with practice, too. I've heard it has been done in practice. I wonder if this year if anyone will go into negative figures on the stage. No one actually takes all the time to shoot the stage.

Maybe Im confused (probably), but how can one zero the stage or go negative, if they take LONGER than 36 seconds to shoot 36 Xs?

One can zero or go negative only if they stay below the 36 seconds. Example would be 30 X's, 6 A's and total time of 30 seconds = zero and if you add 1 more X and 5 A's at 30 seconds you will be at -1. It will still be a challange to zero the stage and if it is done it will not be as satisfiying as zeroing the true F&N and collecting the bounty. But hell if I zero the stage the way it is set up this year you won't hear me crying or maybe you will as they will be tears of joy falling in my beer.

[revoman]

Oh by the way I am going to practice the standards this weekend and shame on me for being a gamer and practicing this stage.

[hearthco]

Oh by the way I am going to practice the standards this weekend and shame on me for being a gamer and practicing this stage.

INDEED

[Carmoney]

Wouldn't it be better if you didn't know exactly what the stage would be like, and instead of grooving in one particular thing, you were forced to become generally proficient at getting good fast hits at all practical distances, achieving fast and consistent reloads on demand, shooting strong/weak-hand-only when necessary, shooting on the move, and all the other general shooting skills it takes to become the best possible all-around revolver shooter you can be?

Instead of just setting up one stage and shooting the goddam thing over and over?

Edited April 11, 2009 by Carmoney

[scottyinAZ]

why is the near and far standards weighted so heavily?? its one stage out of many. i dont understand how it can make such a difference in your score. if you shoot bad at any one stage it will hurt your score. why is this stage different?? i ask as i have never shot the IRC but i am hoping to make it this year. i shot a mini near/far last sunday for the fist time at the 25 yard mark and no time limit. it was fun and i did well, i would like to practice it as i didnt shoot well weak hand and need to shoot at 50 yards. i also want to practice all shooting skills as well, but i have most of them figured out. i did find out i need to speed up my long range shooting from shooting the 25 yard version.

Scott

[Bubber]

Wouldn't it be better if you didn't know exactly what the stage would be like, and instead of grooving in one particular thing, you were forced to become generally proficient at getting good fast hits at all practical distances, achieving fast and consistent reloads on demand, shooting strong/weak-hand-only when necessary, shooting on the move, and all the other general shooting skills it takes to become the best possible all-around revolver shooter you can be?

Instead of just setting up one stage and shooting the goddam thing over and over?

It is not the only stage I practice But I will practice it 3 times at a session., maybe twice a week the month prior to the IRC. The Far and Near is the only stage (other than classifiers) where you know exactly what to exspect. Any printed stage will look different in 3d, where you may be able to see a target or not when set up. Mike, as you may know there are really no new stages just collections of the same skill set at different times for different stages. If I had a star I would be shooting (practicing) it. I do have a plate rack that I also use. As Scotty mentioned the Far and Near weigh heavily on the match. But any stage where you can really tank it weighs heavily in ICORE. In IPSC you can only score a zero and one stage might not doom you. In ICORE if the disaster factor hits you can really feel it. just my 2 cents later rdd