technetium-99m Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Hey guys, I have a 2011 I'm putting together and I have run into a problem. The barrel is fit to the slide and everything was going very well until tonight. The W/N ramped Kart barrel is fit to the slide and I have 49 thou of lockup, the firing pin is aligned in the barrel, and the gun hand cycles like a dream. The problem is with the timing. There is absolutely no contact between the vertical impact surface and the barrel. I am getting contact between the bottom of the ramp and the top of the frame. Quick checking reveals the barrel I believe being stopped by the link, pushing the muzzle against my bench results in a slide stop that will not rotate freely. Measuring the frame gives me .315 from the rails to the top of the W/N cut and .508 from the back side of the slide stop to the vertical impact surface. For some reason I am having trouble locating instructions for making the W/N cut so I am not sure if these dimensions are correct. The cut was made by a well known smith and I have no reason to question its correctness. Any advice on what to check out next would be appreciated. BTW, I have not removed any metal from the lower lugs on the barrel. Advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Desk Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) Hey guys,I have a 2011 I'm putting together and I have run into a problem. The barrel is fit to the slide and everything was going very well until tonight. The W/N ramped Kart barrel is fit to the slide and I have 49 thou of lockup, the firing pin is aligned in the barrel, and the gun hand cycles like a dream. The problem is with the timing. There is absolutely no contact between the vertical impact surface and the barrel. I am getting contact between the bottom of the ramp and the top of the frame. Quick checking reveals the barrel I believe being stopped by the link, pushing the muzzle against my bench results in a slide stop that will not rotate freely. Measuring the frame gives me .315 from the rails to the top of the W/N cut and .508 from the back side of the slide stop to the vertical impact surface. For some reason I am having trouble locating instructions for making the W/N cut so I am not sure if these dimensions are correct. The cut was made by a well known smith and I have no reason to question its correctness. Any advice on what to check out next would be appreciated. BTW, I have not removed any metal from the lower lugs on the barrel. Advice? Mark the recoil surface of the lug with a black Marker pen.... assemble the gun and hand cycle it a few times... disassemble and check the recoil lug for contact marks....check the frame cut for a chamfer at the top edge of the recoil cut.... you will need a chamfer or relief in the frame to allow the barrel to come all the way back because the barrel will probably have a radius ground in it at this point. Edited March 13, 2009 by Service Desk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 ....check the frame cut for a chamfer at the top edge of the recoil cut.... you will need a chamfer or relief in the frame to allow the barrel to come all the way back because the barrel will probably have a radius ground in it at this point. +1 However, if you have a sufficient chamfer there, it sounds like your vertical impact surface in the frame bridge is cut too far back. Take the slide off the gun and insert the barrel and slide stop. Mimic the barrel movement into link down. When the barrel stops its rearward movement (by trying to stretch the link), how much clearance do you have between the bottom of the barrel "tube" and the frame rail bed? What I am getting at is you might be able to get away with bringing down the frame bridge a little bit to allow the barrel to link a little further down so that it will impact vertical surface as its supposed to do. You might then have to chamfer the frame rail bed a bit to give the barrel diameter a little more clearance. I would have an experienced 1911 smith look at it in person to confirm this might be doable. If that is not doable, you could probably salvage the frame by buying a Clark/Para/Lissner ramped barrel. You would have to have the bridge cut for this, but that is EASY BREEZY! This would correct the vertical impact surface problem (and give you a better barrel ramp type too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technetium-99m Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 The cut should have been good to go, there is a nice chamfer already. By marking up the barrel I am sure it's stopping on top of the bed and being held there by the link. Anyone have any bets on how long it would take the barrel to self destruct if fired? The vertical impact surface being too far back was the first thing I thought of, but the smith that made the cut is well known and assured me he would leave enough meat so the barrel could be properly timed. I've got a SA 1911 with a factory W/N cut so I'm going to check the dimensions there and see if I can make a comparison. I'm not going to lower the cut any until another smith can tell me it would solve the problem. Anyone local to OKC that could make a salvaging para cut soon? I'd really like to get this gun running for doubletap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If I'm reading your posts correctly and getting the gist of your problem, it would appear that the horizontal ramp surface on the frame or its mating surface on the barrel needs adjustment. If this is an oversize barrel (gunsmith fit) I would expect the ramp has been left "long" to facillitate this. Your link test may be giving you false information as pushing on the muzzle could result in the tight slide stop by taking up all the slack in the pin holes, but this would not allow the link to "arc" further in its travel because the barrel is sliding on the horizontal impact surface. Try disassembling the gun as Stockton suggested and check whether or not the chamber area of the barrel is sitting on the frame bed when you link the barrel down and hold it there on the ramp surface. If it's not, then material may need to be removed from the horizontal ramp surface so the the link can cam the barrel all the way down and back. This may take a few careful cuts as ideally you want the horizontal ramp surfaces, vertical impact areas, and the barrel chamber/ frame bed surfaces all contacting equally and at the same time. Hope this helps. Gino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 VIS is too far back, it will break links if you shoot it. Get in contact with the person/company that cut the frame. This is EXACTLY why I will never build again on a frame that I didn't cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 How about finding a link long enough so that the barrel stops on the VIS? Then file the upper part of the link pin hole bit by bit until it doesn't bind anymore. Don't know if it would change the linkdowm timing too much. Some of you guys are probably shuddering with horror right about now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Cut on the frame should be .485-490. NOT any futher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technetium-99m Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 I've thought about longer links and enlarging the slide stop hole in the link but I feel these are stop gap measures and won't really solve the problem. The gun may run for a while and then around round 2,000 the barrel will probably self destruct. I'm going to contact the guy that cut the frame and see if it's toast or can be salvaged, I'll let the esteemed smiths here know what transpires. If anyone has any further info please let me know. Thanks all. GT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 (edited) ....This is EXACTLY why I will never build again on a frame that I didn't cut. Longer link probably won't work. For every .001 it allows the barrel link down aft by, it will add about .0014 of additional upper lug engagement. Unless its REAL close to engaging VIS, you'll get TOO much upper lug engagement and gun will not go into battery. If you're willing to drive to Tulsa, Kevin Toothman at USSA does great work and could get you fixed up. Edited March 14, 2009 by stockton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougR Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Stockton, ong45 suggested using a longer link AND then filing the slide stop hole of the link upwards making it effectively a short link while in battery. You may have missed that part of his post. The objective here is to determine if the frame VIS has been cut back too far. Most of what I have read indicates it may in fact have been cut back too far. The suggestion put forth by ong45 is a simple fix if the VIS hasn't been cut more than a few thousandth's too much. The .508" from the back of the slide stop to the VIZ is disturbing. As pointed out by benny hill and HSMITH, the VIS may already be cut back way too far. This in my opinion would render the frame seriously damaged, if not destroyed. However the problem needs to be fully understood before any more cutting or filing on the frame. It will be interesting to hear what the original smith has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 ...ong45 suggested using a longer link AND then filing the slide stop hole of the link upwards making it effectively a short link while in battery. You may have missed that part of his post... I didn't. This isn't a tenable solution. Will cause premature link and slidestop wear. In other words, its a duct tape repair job! Frame can easily be salvaged with a Clark/Para/Lissner recut of VIS. But, this would mean new barrel, obviously. If VIS is CLOSE, my fix above should work and avoid forking out for new barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougR Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Stockton, Would you care to comment on the .508" dimension reported by technitium-99? It looks like the VIS has been cut considerably past the maximum dimension. I'm not entirely clear on how this dimension was arrived at. However if accurate it would seem the VIS has been cut back too much. Much more than either of our fixes could fix. I would like to hear how using a Clark/Para/Lissner recut and barrel would work. I'm not at all familiar with this barrel and how it fits. Are you saying a C/P/L barrel is compatible with a VIS that has been over cut as this frame seems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) Since correct cut is ~ .485-.500 (depending or barrel spec) a .508 is a little too far back- not necessarily "considerably" too far. If the barrel has enough meat on it, he might be able to fix it by lowering frame bridge and chamfering the barrel bed slightly to allow extra linkdown. Spec for that is .315 from rail bed, but I wouldn't want to go down more than .320. This MAY be enough to let barrel link down into VIS. If not... The Nowlin cut is .160 long and the C/P/L is .260. Therefore, that extra .100 gives you plenty to fix. The C/P/L is actually much easier to do and allows more meat on the barrel lower lug. I don't know why more people don't use it! A poorly cut W/N frame can usually be fixed by recutting for C/P/L, but not vice versa. Here is an excellent description by Mike Watkins from the Brownell's website: ...With a Nowlin/Wilson ramp barrel, insert a slide stop into the frame and measure from the slide stop pin back to the vertical face of the barrel lug slot in the frame. Subtract this distance from .500 inch and write it down. Clamp the frame with the rails vertical in the mill vice, and with a Nowlin ramped barrel frame bridge cutter, move the vertical face of the lug slot back the distance you measured above, usually around .160 inches. Now you can clamp the frame in the mill vise at a 45 degree angle from vertical. Chamfer the corner of the two above cuts its full length between the frame rails and so that the chamfer has a width of .050 of an inch. Use a flat needle file and round the sharp two edges of the chamfer to match the rounded mating corner on the barrel, about a 1/16 inch radius. If you are using a Clark/Para ramped barrel the .315 slot cut is the same. But the second cut is different; insert a slide stop into the frame and measure from the back of the pin to the vertical surface of the lug slot. Subtract this distance from .600 of an inch, write it down. With the frame in the mill vice, with the rails horizontal, lower the end mill down into the frame. Move the vertical surface back the results of your measurements from above, usually about .260 of an inch. Now use a Dremel tool or a round needle file to radius the sharp edge of those two cuts to about 1/16 of an inch to match the fillet on the back of the barrel lugs. As you can see the Clark/Para ramp cut is easier as you can level the frame in the mill vice and make both cuts without having to reposition the frame. With that machine work done we can assemble the barrel into the slide and onto the frame so that we can check the fit of the frame cut to the barrel lugs, to be sure nothing is binding. Everything fits perfectly, right. Edited March 17, 2009 by stockton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gans Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 The first thing to do is to fit the barrel correctly. You might be able to get it to work with a .508 measurement. If that doesn't work, cutting the frame for the Para cut will fix it, like what has been mentioned. Another option is to just add a little weld on the back of the existing barrel to take up the play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougR Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Stockton, Thank you for your reply and link for fitting ramped barrels. I'm afraid I didn't know much about ramped barrel fitting and as a result I opened my mouth when I should have kept it shut. I now understand some of the issues fitting a ramped barrel that I frankly never considered. Hopefully Technetium_99m's smith will help resolve the issues he has posted. Thanks again, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) No problems. Glad you liked the the Brownell's link. They also have a fantastic series that takes you through a full 1911 build start to finish. Good stuff! Jerry's two books are also must haves. Edited March 18, 2009 by stockton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead slinger Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I am having the same issue with my 1911. I shot Johnson County two weekends ago and as I checked the gun for clearing when I went to bag it a piece of the slide stop fell on the ground. I had stockton look at it to figure out the issue and we found that the frame was cut back to much causing the link to stretch. When we put in a new slide stop the gun would not cycle freely. We had to push on the front of the barrel in order to get it to cycle. Sent the gun to the manufacturer and am awaiting a response to the problem and their solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Desk Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Lead Slinger, I recently observed an STI Targetmaster suffer a similar fate after only 3000 rounds of mild target loads. The VIS showed no sign of contact with the barrel at all.... the link broke and the slide stop was cracked. All this straight out of the factory ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Yeah, the slide stop and link are not designed to stop barrel movement, just direct it into VIS. The slidestop that came out of Leadslinger's gun appeared to be a MIM part to me. Can any of the pro smiths here confirm this? I like to use the good ole Ed Brown-can survive-nuclear explosion- slidestops. NEVER had ANY issues with one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead slinger Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Well, I just received my gun back for the manufacturer today and they said that they changed the linked, put a new slide stop and cut down the horizontal surface on the barrel in order to adjust the timing. They said that they ran about 50 rounds through it and no issues. Of course if wouldnt happen with just 50 rounds. It was around 3000 that the issue showed up originally. Going to put a few 100 through it this weekend at double tap so hopefully STI fixed the issue and it doesnt show up again in another 3000 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 The horizontal bed can be cut down. I got the tip from Schuemann to lower the bed to allow room for the carbon that builds up there. Without a gap the barrel will raise up as carbon builds up and wear the radial lugs. Just another technique I guess. I had a gun that had the VIS cut a bit too far back. The barrel was contacting the inside of the frame rails before the VIS. It wasn't too bad, but after a little relieving to allow the barrel to cam down a bit more it was GTG. I'm curious if there is any space between the frame rails and barrel when it is sitting on the horizontal bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I am having some similar issues with on eof my guns (as y'all have probably seen in the Open Gun technical Forum). Anyway, as I have read these threads, I am starting to wonder if I am understanding what the VIS everyone is referring to. Does anyone know of a reference with a diagram that I can look at just to be sure? I think I am following, but I would rather see a picture to be sure I understand (I am a visual learner). Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I am having some similar issues with on eof my guns (as y'all have probably seen in the Open Gun technical Forum). Anyway, as I have read these threads, I am starting to wonder if I am understanding what the VIS everyone is referring to. Does anyone know of a reference with a diagram that I can look at just to be sure? I think I am following, but I would rather see a picture to be sure I understand (I am a visual learner). Thanks. Jack, it refers to the Vertical Impact Surface. Where the back of the lower lugs of the barrel contact the frame. If the frame is cut for a Wilson/Nowlin ramp, it's a flat surface. If it's for a Clark/Para ramp, it's curved. Hope this clears it up, without photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I am having some similar issues with on eof my guns (as y'all have probably seen in the Open Gun technical Forum). Anyway, as I have read these threads, I am starting to wonder if I am understanding what the VIS everyone is referring to. Does anyone know of a reference with a diagram that I can look at just to be sure? I think I am following, but I would rather see a picture to be sure I understand (I am a visual learner). Thanks. Jack, it refers to the Vertical Impact Surface. Where the back of the lower lugs of the barrel contact the frame. If the frame is cut for a Wilson/Nowlin ramp, it's a flat surface. If it's for a Clark/Para ramp, it's curved. Hope this clears it up, without photos. OK. thanks, Dan. I thought that was it but just wanted to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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