9.1.4

[BR]

Hypothetical scenario:

The previous competitor used a .45 or .40. The competitor being scored used a 9mm or .38S. One paper target was left untaped from previous competitor, and that target has two bigger holes [.45 or .40] and one smaller hole [9mm or .38] in scoring area.

Question:

In this scenario, is it ever possible for the RO to determine an accurate score? How could the scorer prove [unless he actually saw a miss, but does that really even matter for scoring under the rules?] that the smaller bullet did not go through one of the bigger holes? Would such scenario invariably result in a reshoot because the RO cannot determine an accurate score? Rule is below for your consideration. Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks.

-brian reynolds

Rule:

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the tar-

get for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. For the pur-

pose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and

the same.

[Flexmoney]

The only example that comes to mind right off is if the shooter only fired one shot at the target. And, I'd have to KNOW that for sure (I'd use the timer and figure the splits...as further evidence). And, that could be easily mistaken. I once had an RO at the Nationals tell me I only fired one shot at a target (so neither of us looked close for the second hit...which was likely a miss, but still). He was mistaken...as I later saw on video.

Oh...and a fresh hole in...say... a hard cover wall that might have been in the bullet path (hard cover dings should be taped between shooters too).

[mscott]

I would have the shooter reshoot the course since there really is no way to prove where their shots went. The only other way it should stand with a miss is if say the shooter ran dry on the target and forgot to shoot it again after the reload.

[boz1911]

Reshoot, RO cannot accurately determine an accurate score, or at least if I was the shooter, I'd ask for a reshoot.

[AlamoShooter]

This is funny as I was about to present the almost the same question for a friend. The Kicker is to the what if

'The shooter has jambed up / messed up other parts of the stage'?

But on the multi hit target the shooter only shot twice and the target has 4 hits.

What I said was the rest of the stage "Should" make no difference in the decisions on the target in question and rule 9.1.4 applies as 'unable to determine an accurate score.

edit to add

An interesting prospective I got out of the RO class was. when a Re-shoots is called for they are >required< not granted.

Edited March 11, 2009 by AlamoShooter

[XRe]

What I said was the rest of the stage "Should" make no difference in the decisions on the target in question and rule 9.1.4 applies as 'unable to determine an accurate score.

Correct.

edit to add

An interesting prospective I got out of the RO class was. when a Re-shoots is called for they are >required< not granted.

Also (generally) correct There's only one case I can think of where something resembling a "grant" of a reshoot would be offered, and that's RO interference - typically, the RO would ask the shooter (before calling the time) if the RO had interfered with the shooter's run in any way. If the shooter can't point out how and where in the stage, it didn't happen.

This scenario described is the one of the "required reshoot" cases in 9.1.4, subject to the stipulations Flex made.

[SharonAnne9x23]

reshoot. It is impossible to determine if one of his bullets went through the larger hole or missed. The target cannot be accurately scored.

[JThompson]

+1 for Dave

[Jim Norman]

The RO needs to carefully examine the larger caliber hits to see that there is not in fact a slight expansion or oblongating of the original hole where the second shooters smaller caliber round passed through. This is particularly true when a shooter is shooting consistent pairs and the untapped hole is within the circle of probability for his second, apparently missing shot.

Think a consistent 2-Alpha 1" apart, hole two at 1 o'clock to hole one on every target and on this target there is hole one (or two) and the expected location of the second hole is a .45 cal hole. Unlikely, but you might see a hit that really is there. It is your duty as the RO to make sure, as sure as you can that the shooter is not ordered to reshoot a stage that he should not have to. The reshoot gods oft times really suck.

Jim

[AlamoShooter]

the re-shoot God is really a Goddess ,But! she is PMS 50% of the time

[Spray_N_Prey]

+1, but I was going to say she is PMS'ing 75% of the time.

[heavy metal]

Hope I'm not out of place , but as an ro I think that's why there r 2 . When I'm timeing a shooter I'm watching him and his gun for safety. U know keep my eyes on the shooter. The other ro can watch targets. As far as shots go if u have a decent timer, it should count shots. Just this past weekend I was timeing a shooter and happend to notice him shooting a hole right threw his previous shot, if I wouldn't have noticed it I could pull it up on my timer. Of course it seems with local matches ur situation would have been overlooked as it's not like it was nationals. This is just an opinion, please don't reguard as disrespect.

[Jim Norman]

There is no such thing as a PERFECT DOUBLE. It is always A/B/C/D-Mike

Chances are if you saw the second hit, you'd be able to score it later with an overlay if rally tight.

As for using the timer, that is not allowed nor should it be. Missed shots and echoes will screw up your count. Only thing that matters is the beep and the last shot fired. Hold the timer so it picks up the shot and make sure it actually registers. A lot of local matches are won and lost by the position of the timer at the last shot. One thing is not to set up a COF where the last shot will be through a small port that could mask the timer from the pressure wave. Make the last shot a large port that you can get up to with the timer, or out in the open. And for goodness sake, hold the timer up in front so that hthe sensor has a chance. I've seen the RO run the entire COF looking like the Statue of Liberty up until the last shot where he suddenly drops the timer low. By all means protect the timer from the ejected brass and the ejected round at ULSC, but make sure you get the last shot.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

As for using the timer, that is not allowed nor should it be.

Sure it is. It...like other things...is not definitive. It's a piece of evidence in the chain. No reason not to use it. If it's so faulty...then it isn't much good for it's intended job in the first place.

Used properly, it can be a helpful tool.

[Jim Norman]

Scenario, 28 round COF, Shooter gets to the end of the course, timer reads 26 shots, there are 28 holes, do you claim that somewhere one target was not shot at and must not have been taped? Doubt that? You assume that the timer didn't get all the shots. So if there is a hole missing in a target and the round count is more than the the minimum number of shots for the course do assume a double? or do you assume that the shooter actually engaged the target because the timer has sufficient shots showing? Again, doubtful?

If you see the shooter fail to engage a target he doesn't get credit, he gets 2 mike and a Proc. If you see only one hole when scoring the targets and the overlay says one hole, but the timer says the shots were fired does he get a perfect double? No.

The only two things a timer is used for is to start the shooter and record the duration of his run from beep to last shot. Can you back up a timer? Yes, in one instance I support that. At ULSC the ejected round flips back over and hits the timer recording an obvious long split. Record the shown time and cycle the timer to verify the true last shot time.

Can a COF be timed legitimately showing only one shot on the timer? Yes, so long as it is the last shot.

Jim

[Bergie]

The timer is not a tool to be used to count shots.

[Flatland Shooter]

There's only one case I can think of where something resembling a "grant" of a reshoot would be offered, and that's RO interference - typically, the RO would ask the shooter (before calling the time) if the RO had interfered with the shooter's run in any way. If the shooter can't point out how and where in the stage, it didn't happen.

I'll disagree with the statement "if the shooter can't point out how and where in the stage, it didn't happen".

Rule 8.6.4 indicates the RO "may" offer a re-shoot due to interference and it offering is not required.

How many times have you shot when you were "in the zone" and don't even remember making that reload between T7 and T8. If, as the RO I know I interfered with the shooter during the course of fire, I will offer a re-shoot based on that interference. If the shooter does not recall a problem, he may not feel he wants to risk a re-shoot. To me its about being consistent.

Bill

[heavy metal]

I never said anything about relying on the timer, I said use it to confirm shots fired. I don't know what kind of timer you use, but my ced7000 reads well. I never have to be that close to the shooter to read anything. In some instances where Im roing, I can be 10 foot away for the shooter as I would be in his way. Like confirm we areas. My timer works just fine. Until someone buys me one , mine will be the one I use. I wasn't trying to pick a fight. Dang y'all

[BR]

I appreciate everybody's input on this one, which was not purely hypothetical. Last weekend I was the shooter being scored, shooting a 9mm, and one target had two big holes [A/C] from the previous shooter and one 9mm hole [A] clearly from me. RO scored me A/A, counting my 9mm hole and the bigger hole in the A. If he had scored me A/M or A/C, I would have objected, but at the time it seemed to work out in my favor. I've been thinking about it since then, and now believe I should have been required to reshoot that stage.

-br

[Flatland Shooter]

I appreciate everybody's input on this one, which was not purely hypothetical. Last weekend I was the shooter being scored, shooting a 9mm, and one target had two big holes [A/C] from the previous shooter and one 9mm hole [A] clearly from me. RO scored me A/A, counting my 9mm hole and the bigger hole in the A. If he had scored me A/M or A/C, I would have objected, but at the time it seemed to work out in my favor. I've been thinking about it since then, and now believe I should have been required to reshoot that stage.

-br

Is there a possibility that the RO saw something that made him think one of your shots hit one of the bigger holes? A slight elongation where its not expected, a missing grease mark, or any one of several things could have triggered this.

However, if he saw no indication of your 9mm hitting the target, the correct call would have been re-shoot.

Often at local matches, the RO may not know the rules, or if he did know the rules and just wanted to expedite the match, then he was in error.

Bill

Edited March 12, 2009 by Flatland Shooter

[heavy metal]

Over the last couple of years of roing, it's sometimes difficult to appeas the masses. Rule book or not sometimes you have to let a little poop slide. I try my best to follow the rules and sometimes viewed as a range Nazi. Less we remember the ro has the final word on the stage. I suggest everyone become certified R.O. and walk in those shoes before you judge.you ask anyone who shoots with ME, I bring entertainment value when I shoot. I go out of my way to help the new guys. Come shoot with me , you would be glad you did. Don't forget, this is all for fun. Yes yes

[George Jones]

Per the rulebook, the timer is a timing device, not a counting device. Using the timer for shot counting purposes is not provided for in the rules.

That is the way it is taught in RO classes.

The only shot counter on the stage is the RO.

[Flexmoney]

Riiiight. So, just look at the time for each shot. Anybody that knows their business can review the times and reconstruct the entire stage.

As I mentioned early...it not to be taken as a definitive piece of proof. It can be used as further evidence to help an RO ensure that they are making the proper call.

I KNOW our shooters and RO have trouble counting.

(the best argument against this..from the rule book...hasn't been presented yet, btw )

[Flexmoney]

Let's use good old El Prez as an example...

Below are two examples of what the timer might read on El Prez.

I'll bet that most here can tell what happened on Run 2 [edit...fixed math]

Shot# - split time - total running time

Run 1

#01 - 1.59 - 1.59

#02 - .22 - 1.81

#03 - .29 - 2.10

#04 - .22 - 2.32

#05 - .30 - 2.62

#06 - .24 - 2.86

#07 - 1.49 - 4.35

#08 - .25 - 4.60

#09 - .33 - 4.93

#10 - .21 - 5.14

#11 - .34 - 5.48

#12 - .25 - 5.73

Run 2

#01 - 1.59 - 1.59

#02 - .22 - 1.81

#03 - .29 - 2.10

#04 - .22 - 2.32

#05 - .30 - 2.62

#06 - 1.49 - 4.11

#07 - .25 - 4.36

#08 - .33 - 4.69

#09 - .21 - 4.90

#10 - .34 - 5.24

#11 - .25 - 5.49

[George Jones]

(the best argument against this..from the rule book...hasn't been presented yet, btw )

One of these days, you're going to have to decide where you stand. Either it's "show me the rule where you can", or it's "show me the rule where you can't".

You can't have it both ways just to suit the opinion of the day. The rule specifically says "timing" device. "Counting" is not mentioned.

But, hey, you don't have to take my word for it, you know where to get the answer.