Zak Smith Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I plan to order a Limited gun in the next few months. I don't know what I want yet. I'll be using it for USPSA/IPSC Limited and 3Gun. Currently, I'm shooting an off-the-shelf single-stack .45. Can someone give me an introduction to the Limited gun, and what options I should consider? thanks Zak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 HOOWEE! How many hundred pages of opinion do you want? Light/heavy, short slide/long slide, trigger pull, sights, S_I or S_I, short dust cover/long dust cover, etc. etc. etc..... You can probably find at least one person who likes any possible combination of all possible features in a limited gun. You can search through these forums and find a lot of opinions. If it is at all possible, go shoot some of your friends' guns. Find out what you like. Then find a good IPSC gunsmith and talk to him about what you liked and didn't like. Have him build you a gun based on that. I will say that I switched from a P14-45 to a custom-built S_I .40 about a year ago and the difference is night and day. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Well...I'll take a shot. The best advice is to get your hands on and shoot if possible everything you can. That being said there are other considerations than "I want one like Joe has". First off...what is your budget? If you have the $$$ and are willing to lay them down for this pistol then it is hard to go wrong with an STI/SVI or one of the derivatives of these such as are produced by Dawson and a host of other folks. If your budget is more constrained then you may want to take a look at the used market or one of the lower end semi-custom guns. I have a Dawson-Jarrett P-16 Limited and I love it. Runs like a clock and cost me half of what one of the S_I guns would have. That being said, I will someday make the move to one of the S_I guns or a derivative of one of these. Another consideration is if you live in the Republik of Kalibanfornia. If so, then your options are reallll limited. Someone else that lives there will have to jump in and help with the ins and outs of that. Even thinking about it makes me go kinda nutz. Next consideration is mags. Hi-caps are available (RoK is a whole other story...again) if you are willing to spend the $$$. If the ban sunsets next year then hi-caps will probably flow fast and furious at low prices...but I am not holding my breath. Hi-caps for the Paras are still pretty plentiful and not dreadfully expensive if you are patient. S_I hi-caps are out there as well but they tend to go for a premium. For any limited gun you will want a mag well. Some folks like huge mag wells that you can speed load half your hand into like the Dawson Ice. I have an Ice and it is great...although I have loaded a finger plus the mag a couple times when dry-firing and going for broke and that HURTS! There are smaller mag wells and heavier mag wells. All depends on what you are looking for. Some folks like a heavy magwell to change the balance point of pistol backward others want to shift the balance forward. Too each his own. Next on to the grips: There are a zillion options here. Everything from do-it-yourself grips with skateboard tape or abrasive grit and epoxy to hi-tech grip panels to whatever you can imagine. Get your hands on (literally) as many of these as you can and determine what you like best. Sights...ask 10 people what the best sights are and you are likely to get 15 answers. Probably the defacto standard are BoMar rear with an optical fiber front followed by a straight blade front with BoMar rear. But it isn't so simple. Front blade width is another subjective thing. When I bought my Para I consulted the sage advice on this board and most folks seemed to like the .090 width. Well...that didn't work worth squat for me. Too much open space on the sides given what I had grown up seeing as a sight picture for 30+ years. So, I switched to a .125 and life got better in a hurry. One of those changes where within 10 seconds at the range I KNEW I had done the right thing. Then the doo-dads and knicknacks go on from there. The truly great thing about the 1911/2011 pistols is that there are more nifty after-market parts to drop into them than for just about any gun ever made. Get a good solid pistol and start tweaking. Get a Brownell's catalog and go peruse the 1911/2011 section. Lots of interesting ideas there. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Best bit of advice I can give you is to look at what everyone shooting. If you see someone shooting an STI or Para or Whatever, ask to shoot a few rounds through it. BEFORE you go to spending upwards of $2000 for a custom limited gun, make sure it fits YOUR hand and shooting style. I had my mind made up on a Para until I shot one, not that Para doesn't make a top-of-the-line pistol, it just didn't fit my hand. I'm sure you'll find no shortage of people willing to show off their blaster. I bought a Benny Hill 6" and every match, someone asks to shoot it. I have no problem with that whatseover. Take your time and research whats best for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I am in the process of going from a single stack STI to a 2011. I did alot of what was recommended in the other replies with the exception of actually shooting the guns. I took a serious look at the Dawson Para. For under a grand it is a great buy. One of my fellow shooters purchased one and has been on a tear to make Master. He likes the Dawson Para alot. Most people I shoot with in two out of the three states all have STIs. About half are Dawson customs and the other half are STI Edges. Most have the narrow Dawson fiber optic front sight and an Ice mag well. The third state where I shoot has mostly SV. Infinity's rule with STI still a factor but a whole lot of SVs. Everyone has some type of mag well and fiber optic front sight. Seems like everyone has a bomar rear sight. Based on what I saw, I purchased a STI Short Block kit from Brownells and put the parts in that I like. I do NOT believe I saved any money over buying it from Dawson!! My next purchase with be an SV from Kodiak Precision. Knowing what I know now, I should have purchased a custom built SV from Kodiak Precision. Second choice would have been Brazos followed by one from Benny Hill or JP. There are other custom builders out there but I have seen all these folks' work and I like what I saw and what people said about the quality of service and reliability of their work. One additional note is on mags. There are some good threads in this forum about SV v. STI mags and tuning. Grams Engineering is my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 Answers to questions, I'm in Colorado - we're still free. I expect to spend about $2000 +/- 300 on the gun and about another $500 in mags (to start off). With this one, I want to buy the right thing first. I'll see if I can shoot some local guys' pistols. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Zak, I had mine hard chromed. My understanding is that it offers the greatest durability. It adds about $250 to the cost. BTW, you can purchase your mag tube from brownells then get your springs, followers, and base pads from either Dawson or Grams and have them tune the mags. That would put you at the $300 mark for three mags. Additionally, the .40 likes to be loaded long, so it is a good idea to have your mags with the gun when the gunsimth is doing the final reliability testing. It is true some STI run great right out of the box while others need a litte help. You might want to call Paul at Dawson and chat with him about a package deal, having Dawson do the final check, and tune the mags for an STI Edge. He is running a sale on his mag tubes and tuning. http://www.dawsonprecision.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I would find the best gunsmith with in driving distance and go and talk with him. Talk about what your wanting in your gun. Then maybe post what he says and you can compare it to what you gather from here and come up with a really good blaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Or buy a Glock 35 and: 1. Do a trigger job. 2. Install a KKM barrel. 3. Get some high cap mags. 4 Put on a MMC rear and a Dawson Precision fiber optic front(made for the made for the Novak rear. And save a ton of________ $$$________ PLUS THE GUN WILL WORK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 OR..... just buy a 19/2011 and forget the combat Tupperware all together. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 Sorry, the Glock is out. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 BTW, you can purchase your mag tube from brownells then get your springs, followers, and base pads from either Dawson or Grams and have them tune the mags. That would put you at the $300 mark for three mags. Or you could buy some old pre ban mags and just replace what is worn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 BTW, you can purchase your mag tube from brownells then get your springs, followers, and base pads from either Dawson or Grams and have them tune the mags. That would put you at the $300 mark for three mags. I was under the impression that was a felony. BTW, if there are any game-pistol gunsmiths anywhere on the front range, I sure haven't heard of them, not that that means much. I'd be delighted to learn that such a shop existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 MoNsTeR there are a couple ..they run shops as a parttime business...one is up in Littleton, Steve Moore.and I think one is in the Pueblo area.. they build pretty decent guns..several aurora gun club ipsc guys use Steve Moore..and a local GM uses the Pueblo guy... thats about all I know of..or heard of..Gary Kimball and Andy Ginn used to run a really nice shop..but they have since retired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Why would someone choose a short-dustcover frame over a long-dustcover frame, or vice versa? Most of the people around here have the long frame. In general, what characteristics make one gun shoot "flatter" than another? I shot eerw's 9x23 single-stack a while back, and I loved how quick and flat it shot. Which SV/STI frame/slide/barrel setup would be closest to that? -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 With the spending you plan on, get a long/wide STI or SV. Buy SV mags. Don't take chances with crazy mag springs and followers just to squeeze in one more round - not worth it. The ONLY thing that makes a Limited gun shoot flatter (with identical loads) is to shift the center of weight forward. Since there's no good way to take weight out of the rear, your option is more weight in front. Long/wide. Don't bother with slide lightening, for now. First you want to learn to track the sights - a lightened slide cycles faster and makes it harder to track the sights. 180 JHP, Titegroup or N320 powder. 12-14lb recoil spring. I've heard that the classic, old slide design recoils less than the one that's square in front. That should be light enough. Not as pretty though. Ask people who've owned both. My $.02 dvc - eric - a28026 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 caspian28r, When you say, "get a long/wide STI or SV". I understand what you mean by "long" - the long dustcover that extends to the muzzle. What do you mean by "wide"? As for mags, Erik Warren hooked me up with some of his 140mm STI mags. It's good to hear about TG - I use it extensively in both 9x19 and .45. thanks Zak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Zak, Monster, EERW: Don't over look T.J.'s Gunsmithing (303) 361-1911. I worked there for 3 years and we did, and Tim still does, about the best work in the front range. My specialty was M-14s and ARs. Tim did the race guns and NO ONE wanted for a better service. Tim and I were team mates for a few years at S.O.F. and he knows how to build ANY race gun out there. We were both instramental in inovative shotgun work, which tied in recently with Benny Hill on the " light Benelli bolt" project and more. Tim trained under the late great Fred Sadowski and I can't say enough good things about his shop! I wish I hadn't moved to Oklahoma as I still had some "cool" projects in mind. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Kurt thanks for the tip on TJs..will need to look them up for a project.. How is Oklahoma?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Which grips are the slimmest (or with rounded corners) from the factory? It looks like the choices are default SV (checkered), Alfaro stipple, and Scotts. I understand I can have a custom 'smith build me one up from scratch, or buy a factory-built SV with maybe some trigger work from someone like SpeedShooters or JP. Which is likely to be the better option for me? thanks Zak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Scotts is slimmest/ smallest girth. Have a smith build it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Nothing beats a local gunsmith, if he knows how to build a gun that will run. You can come back to him for minor tune-ups and fixes without the expense and hassle of shipping to a non-local smith. But if you don't have a local race gun smith, it's a tough choice. I think you'll have to go custom or DIY for a slim grip. The re-textured grips I've seen aren't thinner. Jim Shanahan told me he'd make his re-textured grip as thin as you want. The long/wide frames not only have a wide dustcover, they are also wider. All to add weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 While I was talking to someone at JP about my AR/CTR order, he said that SV's are basically good to go from the factory. If the gun I'm getting is relatively standard, what will a 'smith do that SV won't? -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Erik, Roger on getting a local guy to tune it up. Not sure if that's feasible yet. How can I visually distinguish a "wide" frame from the regular "long" frame? -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I don't think either STI or SV make a long skinny frame. Not sure about their extra-long frames for 6" slides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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