Opie Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) Lead is not something I really gave much thought to until I started playing with compenents and seeing all the small particles of lead in the bottom of the tumbler. I practice quite often on an indoor range in a basement. The range does have a ventilation system, but who knows how old it is and I don't know if filters are used or changed on a regular basis. I also run qualifications for officers on the same range several weeks a year (probably 120hrs or so a year) so I am exposed to the air down there quite a bit. Is there any real risk to me if I were to switch to lead bullets? Right now I am shooting about 5k a year, but would like to bump that up to 10k per year in the near future. I had been loading the excellent Montana Gold 230 FMJ bullets, but ordered TMJ on my last order as it was only about $5 more. That was a no brainer for me, but what I am debating now is buying an aftermarket G21 barrel and shooting lead out of my glock to save some money. There is a substantial savings going to an all lead bullet over the Montana Golds, but my health is important too. I guess I could always load lead for outdoor shooting, and stick with TMJ indoors. That would considerably reduce the savings though, as I only shoot outside about twice a month. Not to mention I would have have adjustments to be made to the machine to go back and forth. What are your thoughts on the matter? Edited January 30, 2009 by Opie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 In the environment you describe--Yes, there is a real risk for absorbing a lot more lead. You could cut down the risk by buying a good mask that will filter the lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I would guess you may want to get infrequent blood tests so that you know what your exposure is if your going to continue in these conditions. Better to be on the safe side.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 IMO, by far, the worst is shooting inside. There is a compound called lead styphanate in the primers. Gun fires, lead styphanate becomes aerosolized, hangs in the air and you breathe it in. The next worst offender is your tumbler. Wear a mask while fiddling around with the media and sorting the brass from it. Always wash your hands afterwards. Next to actually having a hypodermic syringe stuck in a vein, inhaling something is about the next quickest way to get a chemical substance into your bloodstream. Think cigarette smokers and coke heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 FWIW, My lead levels have actually continued to go down since I stopped shooting indoors, even though I have picked up casting boolits and making birdshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Lead from the bullet itself, either jacketed with an exposed base or simply a lead bullet accounts for an extremely small percentage of the lead that can make it to your bloodstream. The lead styphnate in the primer is totally different and is what you have to worry about. It is atomized and goes through your lungs into the bloodstream very easily. Lead from handling bullets while loading is almost not a factor if you don't have open cuts and wash your hands after loading..it's a solid that doesn't easily get absorbed into your system. Lead from tumbling is in between. It's small enough that you can inhale it and it will get into your system, but not as easily as burned primer compound....still I would avoid the dust from tumbling as best you can since it's not hard to do. I'd suspect that if you increase the amount you shoot your lead count is going to go up regardless of what style bullet is involved, but if you're smart about it the amount it goes up shouldn't be too much. I would ask the folks at the range whether they have a closed loop system with filters or if it draws fresh air from outside and simply vents it. I don't know if anyone sells the lead-free primers as a component, but the way things work they probably would cost twice as much. They'd be no good for matches as they're not as reliable, but would be okay to practice with. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom S. Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I have used lead bullets for years with no ill effecmnklfaghqrhgn[aeiq04868qhtq[jfg0w44ur068un3v578=w8v671i6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) IMO, by far, the worst is shooting inside. There is a compound called lead styphanate in the primers.Gun fires, lead styphanate becomes aerosolized, hangs in the air and you breathe it in. The next worst offender is your tumbler. Wear a mask while fiddling around with the media and sorting the brass from it. Always wash your hands afterwards. Next to actually having a hypodermic syringe stuck in a vein, inhaling something is about the next quickest way to get a chemical substance into your bloodstream. Think cigarette smokers and coke heads. Inhaling atomized particles has a faster reaction in the body than IV introduced chemicals. Shooting indoors is the number one reason many of us have had high lead levels. The lead styphanate is at it's optimum condition to be absorbed into the body immediately after being shot, it's particles are heated, minimized, and airborn. Just like cigerette smoke etc. The second time the lead styphanate particles can be airborn is when it's removed from the brass in the tumbler. It's not as bad as when shot, but there is a higher concentration of it in the cleaning media. Everyone is different when it comes to their ability to absorb lead. Some people have very little problem with it, and can handle much higher levels of exposure without absorbing it into their system. Others are very sensitive to it and it takes very little exposure to cause elevated levels. If you have elevated levels of lead, you may not be in the medically established danger levels, but still feel affects from it. For me, I was having regular low level headaches at 21 dl/mg in my system. Medical opinions vary on what is the acceptable level in an adult I've heard everything from 11 to 14 dl/mg, but most agree that 9 is the cut off for children. Once the lead is absorbed into the body, it's deposited into the skeletal system and takes a very long time leach out of your system. There are herbal remedies out there that might help speed up cleaning it out of your system, but they mostly just flush out the particles not in the skeletal system. Chelation therepy and time are really the only two proven techniques to remove lead from your system. Chelation is a treatment designed by the US Navy back in the 50's to remove heavy metals from the systems of sailors. It works, but only used if your levels are in danger zone 40 dl/mg or higher. Other than that, stopping the exposure and time work just fine to bring you levels down. There are a couple of tests to measure your lead levels, but the one you want is a basic blood test. There's a urine test, but you really don't want to piss in a bucket for two days and then turn it in... The blood test is one vial of blood in an Imperial blue topped vial. If the lab is confused or hesitant to do the test, make them look it up. It should be in one of the manuals and most labs have no clue how to do it until they look it up. If you levels are high, but not in a dangerous level, good luck finding a Dr that knows what to do. I have yet to find one that had an idea other than stop shooting and stop reloading... Ya, I laughed, loudly. Obviously I went through this, and ended up doing my own research after my levels were high. Best thing is to have it tested every year or so. If they get high, cut out the indoor shooting or wear a resparator when shooting indoors. Gloves and outdoors for cleaning and separating brass from media, and time will clear it out. Edited January 30, 2009 by SA Friday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I've got the same thing going on. When I had it checked in Oct. it was 19. Last week it was 23. I shoot indoors on Mondays, and have for about 14 years, plus reloading. I heard the same thing about the tumbler being the worse lead culprit in a shooter's house. My Dr. wants me to see a hematologist. I tried shooting with a painters mask last Monday, and hated it, glasses kept fogging up. I may have to cut back on my Mondays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharonAnne9x23 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 SA Friday, I find your statement "Inhaling atomized particles has a faster reaction in the body than IV introduced chemicals." rather strange since inhalation just introduces the particle into the blood, IV, through the membrane wall of the lung. Since IV infusion via an IV catheter and absorption through the lungs each result in the the component in question arriving in the blood stream, claiming inhalation has a faster reaction seems spurious. The most important thing regarding indoor shooting is the introduction of clean air. I had my blood lead level hit 41mcg/dl. I used that to force the BOD of my gun club in MI to install proper ventilation. Our system was total loss. No recirculation. We had 2 inlet and 2 exhaust fans. Each inlet had a 125,000 btu burner so we could keep from freezing in the winter. After 14 months of no indoor shooting my level was low enough that my Dr. let me go indoors again. Even after I started shooting indoors my lead/blood level continued to fall. Opie, see your Primary Care Provider , and ask to have you blood tested for lead. The PCP can often just add it to regular blood screening. If it is in the safe level just have it checked 6 months later. If it is still in the safe range then have it checked annually or as frequently as your PCP requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBuzzard Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I just asked for a blood test last time at docs office. Came back very low.....all ok. My point is the test was only $90. I think all higher volume shooters should take this test, especially if shooting indoors. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooddog Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 IMO, by far, the worst is shooting inside. There is a compound called lead styphanate in the primers.Gun fires, lead styphanate becomes aerosolized, hangs in the air and you breathe it in. The next worst offender is your tumbler. Wear a mask while fiddling around with the media and sorting the brass from it. Always wash your hands afterwards. Next to actually having a hypodermic syringe stuck in a vein, inhaling something is about the next quickest way to get a chemical substance into your bloodstream. Think cigarette smokers and coke heads. I was able to buy Lead free Primers from PMC a year or so ago, but can't find them now...?? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry883804 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 SA Friday, I find your statement "Inhaling atomized particles has a faster reaction in the body than IV introduced chemicals." rather strange since inhalation just introduces the particle into the blood, IV, through the membrane wall of the lung. Since IV infusion via an IV catheter and absorption through the lungs each result in the the component in question arriving in the blood stream, claiming inhalation has a faster reaction seems spurious. Thread drift on.. I'm far from a biochemist, but the above is pretty much what I said to my academy instructor (Masters Degree in Forensic Science and over 15 years in use) when he was teaching narcotics use. Smoked narcotics are absorbed quicker and react faster in the body than free-based narcotics. After 10 years of dealing with pot heads, tweakers, dopers, free-basers, and your various designer drug users I'm inclined to agree the users introducing through smoke become intoxicated faster and stronger than IV. Admittedly, it's not much faster than IV. Just a guess on my part, but it may have more to do with the smoking part than the way it's introduced into the bloodstream. Just had a weird thought, free-basing lead, now that's just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opie Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 SA Friday, I find your statement "Inhaling atomized particles has a faster reaction in the body than IV introduced chemicals." rather strange since inhalation just introduces the particle into the blood, IV, through the membrane wall of the lung. Since IV infusion via an IV catheter and absorption through the lungs each result in the the component in question arriving in the blood stream, claiming inhalation has a faster reaction seems spurious. Thread drift on.. I'm far from a biochemist, but the above is pretty much what I said to my academy instructor (Masters Degree in Forensic Science and over 15 years in use) when he was teaching narcotics use. Smoked narcotics are absorbed quicker and react faster in the body than free-based narcotics. After 10 years of dealing with pot heads, tweakers, dopers, free-basers, and your various designer drug users I'm inclined to agree the users introducing through smoke become intoxicated faster and stronger than IV. Admittedly, it's not much faster than IV. Just a guess on my part, but it may have more to do with the smoking part than the way it's introduced into the bloodstream. Just had a weird thought, free-basing lead, now that's just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opie Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Thanks for everyones input. I am going to only order TMJ bullets and will try to start tumbling the brass outside when possible. I had my lead levels checked last year, the department paid for it but never told me the results. I guess if it was high they would have pulled me from range duty. I will ask about having it done again this year. Thanks, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry273 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Opie, to go back to your original post.....why would it be necessary to change barrels to shoot lead bullets?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 As I understand it, the rifling of stock Glock barrels will accumulate lead more than other types of rifling and Glock suggests not shooting lead through the stock barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestWorld Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I have used lead bullets for years with no ill effecmnklfaghqrhgn[aeiq04868qhtq[jfg0w44ur068un3v578=w8v671i6. Now that's just funny........ to me! Or maybe I've got lead poisioning and my perception is skewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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