front sight tracking

[Rush]

Newbie and was wondering... and apologies if this seems like a thread hijack, but on FS tracking do you actually... really see every movement of the front sight as it tracks up from the rear notch... or do you just visually acquire it again when its about 1-2" above the rear notch?

reason i ask is I've never seen the FS lift out of its notch, but I catch it when its about 2" above the RS and about 45 degrees to the right and coming down ... I'm just wondering if I'm missing something and if I should be seeing every moment of it lifting, tracking and returning... we're talking 5-6/100 (FS movement) of a second visual input here right?

Thanks

[ErikW]

I'm mostly aware of it settling back down. Brian frequently mentions seeing it lift off the aiming point, but I don't see that too often. It's there, the shot breaks, it's gone, it's back. I definately don't track its full range of motion, which I don't think is as much as you mentioned.

above the RS and about 45 degrees to the right and coming down

Obviously a .45 ACP shooter. When I shot .45, I was very aware of it tracking back from an angle. None of that with the .40 Short & Wimpy.

[Skywalker]

.40 Short & Wimpy.

Was this the reason why Col. Cooper preferred his own little (breaking-prone) creature, a.k.a. the Bren Ten?

[Al Capizzo]

I'm with Eric on this. Shooting .40 in a Para with fiber optic I don't see the sight through the entire cycle, just when I touch off the shot and as its coming back to the sight notch.

With my .45, with 230 grain (slow) bullets and a Huge square front sight I can watch the sight from beginning to end of the slide cycle. I don't know that this is really important.

I know when my .40 sight is about to reappear, and I'm ready when its back home.

Al

[Flexmoney]

...reason i ask is I've never seen the FS lift out of its notch...

This part could be a problem.

If you aren't seeing the FS lift, then you might be closing your eyes. If you are closing your eyes, then you can't call the shot.

There is no reason not to see the sight lift. It should be right there...where you are looking. It is what you are focused on...then, perhaps, it could go out of the frame of your focus as the gun goes thru it's recoil arc.

I am pretty sure anybody can watch the front sight move thru it's entire arc...if they adjust there focus to do so. I don't know that you have to, but it might be a good exercise to explore.

I would certainly want to see the front sight lift, and return.

[THS]

Maybe I'm drifting this a little, but here goes anyway.

I see my sight for nearly all of it's movement, from lift to return, most of the time. Trouble is, was, that it never lifts the same arc every time, so I'm thinking I got some serious issues.

Well, I end up in a day long class with TGO, and in the morning session I Rob ask a question about this exact thing: Aren't I supposed to have the same movement everytime? He has me shoot grooups on the head of an FBI QIT target quickly, fast, and FASTER. Then he asks what I saw and I explained the sight lifted to the upper left, upper right, straight up, and some I had no clue where it went to. I felt like I was driving it back to the center each and every shot, and some were a long way from what I'd have liked to see.

He looks at my target and said "with groups like those, you are seeing enough!" They were pretty good, too.

Later I asked him a little more and he explained, then demo's, that what matters was not that I had sight lift in varying directions throughout a Bill Drill, but that I could see the sight at the top of the recoil impulse, and then steer it back into the notch to an acceptable level as the shot fires.

BOOM. An enlightening moment. "The important part is seeing the sight as it returns into the rear notch, AS THE GUN IS READY TO FIRE." Yep, that is what I need to see to be accurate and reasonably fast.

Watching the sight the whole cycle would be nice, but I no longer worry about variations in arc of movement, nor seeing the entire arc for that matter. I want to see the moment the shot fires and then as the sight returns. Those are the minimum, for me at least.

Of course I could be all wrong too........

Tom

[Loves2Shoot]

If you see the sight lift, you know almost exactly where that bullet went. If you don't, how do you know where it went for sure? You don't. I want to know where my shots are when I break them. If I focus on that I shoot faster, very accurately, and I make up bad shots instantly. Why anyone wouldn't want to know where each shot is beyond me. I can miss targets @ 3 feet if I don't watch both shots, and in reality, I miss more targets at 1-5 yards than any other targets.

[AikiDale]

Even though I have not been able to repeat this, it must be a sign of improvement. Once, and only once I really saw the front sight. If this were the Zen forum I would say I was one with the front sight. I was not aware of it moving at all, everything else moved. That is, I was aware of the gun moving but the sight and my consciousness remained in sync and the front sight did not appear to lift out of the rear so much as the rear sight dropped and rose. This from a SS 1911 with factory 230 grain .45 ACP. The truly amazing part was that while directing my attention as fully as possible to the front sight I was aware of the bullet. It did not hit the target, a 10" plate at about 15 yards, but I knew it missed the plate by two inches at 1 o'clock and I could have dug it out of the berm because I knew where it went.

I'll report back when this is a regular occurance and not a once in a lifetime phenomena.......

[BigDave]

When I'm in the Zone - I see it all. When I'm shooting my best, I see it all. Its a helluva experience when you do.

[mcoliver]

Rush, here's what you can try but you'll need hi-cap mags for this.

Load you mags to full capacity then go shoot the berm (no particular target, not even a piece of rock or something).

Start firing and get into a rythm with your trigger finger (it doesn't have to be fast). You don't have to do anything except just pull the trigger AND keeping the gun pointed in the berm.

Midway you can even close your eyes momentarily just to see how it feels like. But please be careful and make sure the berm is high enough to catch stray rounds when you do this.

The objective is to get yourself relaxed and desensitized by shots and recoil. Not concious about what your hitting but concious about what your doing. Don't get frustrated if you feel your not getting anything. Do it again as much as your ammo budget will allow.

Try it out then report back what you saw and/or felt.

[Rush]

Thanks, lots of good info there. I'll try the berm exercise and report back on it after I'm done. Really appreciate the inputs...

I currently shot a super 38, open gun in IPSC type competition and although the misses/stage are not the norm... they do occur. Also, I've never been able to "confidently" say that I called a shot.. but sometimes... I know when I missed one. As for the hits, as a norm, the hits would be a A then a C hit on IPSC metric Targets... w/c is not all that great.

I wanted to see if going back to basics would improve my stage performance.. w/o unduly sacrificing time so went back to the 9mm to do some of the exercises mentioned here.... Hopefully, if I can get to a point where I can confidently call a shot and track the FS continuosly... it will remove some of the target doubts and poor hits...

Thanks again and let you all know how it goes...

[Rush]

Hi to all... happy weekend...

I went to the range and tried shooting the back out of the berm with my 9mm.... I can now see the sights tracking again... although its not always there.... but 70% of the time, I can track it... appears I was flinching again (somehow, that things keeps creeping back.. I thought I'd gotten it the last time )

so mixed up the blanks and the live rounds and did that exercise to get rid of the flinch again and stop blinking...

then switched baack to the Super 38... and I can see the dot going up and down and up and down.. this time with bill drills... 2.01 best time, all A's Fantastic!!!! I could hit 1.8's- 1.9's but the shots were all over the place (A & C hits)... more practice...

then i noticed something peculiar... when I'm going for fast hits, i'm pushing the gun to the left... and naturally, the shots were all to the left as well... so went home, did some dry fire and experimented with trigger finger placement (tip, pad, first joint)... and guess what... no matter where I put the damn finger on the trigger, I nudge it to the left every time! @#!&^*$]

Is this more a technique thing or should I look at how I can modify the gun to suit my hand better? I've got little hands and I think the palm pad corresponding to the trigger finger is pushing the grip left everytime...

So just wondering and wanted to see if anyone could put some ideas on solutions... Should I lengthen/shorten the trigger?

Thanks Again...

[dr_phatcity]

anxious to hear the response on this leftward shot deviation problem from the last post.

[eric nielsen]

Nudging left in dry-fire is the easy problem to fix. Ignore your sights for a while.

With just your strong hand, try watching your you trigger finger from directly above the gun - overhead view.

Then turn your hand & forearm over & watch from directly below your gun. You should get an idea now which corner of the trigger is getting hit at an angle, or possibly you follow thru at an angle.

Also look & see if any part of your index finger is rubbing the frame of the gun. Like MattB says, this can add .03sec or more to every shot. And throw them left.

PS - It's when you do it perfect in dry-fire and bad in live-fire that you really have some long-term work to do. What worked for me was slapping the trigger like TGO. Keeps every other part of the hand nice & steady & firm.

[reneet]

then i noticed something peculiar...  when I'm going for fast hits, i'm pushing the gun to the left...  and naturally, the shots were all to the left as well... so went home, did some dry fire and experimented with trigger finger placement (tip, pad, first joint)...  and guess what...  no matter where I put the damn finger on the trigger, I nudge it to the left every time! @#!&^*$]

Is this more a technique thing or should I look at how I can modify the gun to suit my hand better? I've got little hands and I think the palm pad corresponding to the trigger finger is pushing the grip left everytime... 

So just wondering and wanted to see if anyone could put some ideas on solutions...  Should I lengthen/shorten the trigger? 

Sounds like maybe your trigger's too long or you're grip is not staying neutral. What trigger are you shooting?

[wizbang]

I have never been able to see the front sight's track, until yesterday . I have had a kimber in 9mm for a couple of months but only used as my "fun gun". saw that TGO recomends a 1911 in 9mm as the ideal training gun, i started to take it serously. and low and behold, it works!!! seeing the sight lift and calling shots is a breeze, as well as overall awareness as what's happening. in general swithcing between calibers is a great training aid..

great forum.