General Reloading Rules for Accuracy?

[JeffWard]

I've been experimenting with my SDB, shooting 9mm Production Loads.

I've tested 125gr lead bullets... junk. No thanks.

Now, I'm running Berry's Plated bullets. I've tested 124s, and 147s, and adjusted powder charge within 2-3 grains of the manuals (starting a bit low). I've played with OAL, but I'm reading (in old posts) that the longest OAL your gun will feed reliably is usually best. True?

I really enjoy the "feel" of the 147 gr bullets, so soft! And they are a bit more accurate in my gun than the 124s (in the loads I've tested), but they are still in-accurate when compaired to WWB and Blazer Brass 115gr loads. (I'm getting bench-rested groups at 15yds around 3" with factory loads, and 4-5" with reloads) I want to get the 2" groups at 15-20 yards!!!!!! (Accepting a few flier from Pilot-Error)

What effects accuracy the most?

Charge/Velocity?

Powder burn speed?

Bullet quality? (Jacketed vs Plated vs Lead)

OAL?

The actual barrel???

If I have a "decent" plated 147 load over TiteGroup (3.3gr)... how do I make it better? What would you change first? Or is it all just trial and error, changing everything until you find the majic combo?

Thanks,

Jeff

Edited January 21, 2009 by JeffWard

[DougCarden]

Here are some guidlines that seem to work pretty well in most guns I have dealt with.

Load the bullets out as long as they will feed from the magazine and chamber reliably.

Use a medium speed powder.....W 231, WST, Titegroup, VV 320, 330, Superfield.

If they are done well (bullets), you will get better accuracy with the lead bullets than the plated.

Your gun will probably show a preference for either light bullets (115-124) or the 147s. You wont know until you shoot groups.

JHPs will be most accurate, followed by good hardcast lead bullets, and then plated.

At 50yds the gold medal primers DO make a difference in group size.

Hope this helps!

Good luck,

DougC

[JeffWard]

So as soon as I can actually BUY JHP 147s... I will!

It already seems to prefer the heavier bullets, but I'll try to get some 124 and 147gr ZEROs. They seem to be the most popular, over the TiteGroup I already have... And make gains over my plated bullets.

Why are plated LESS accuarte than lead? They would seem to be more consistant, or am I wrong? They just LOOK nice... lol

Jeff

[Alan550]

You might also try Montana Gold 147s since your gun seems to like the heavier stuff. I got excellent accuracy out of them, but they are a bit heavy for the Bianchi type matches, due to the lower velocities.

Alan~^~

[robertbank]

Why are plated LESS accuarte than lead? They would seem to be more consistant, or am I wrong? They just LOOK nice... lol

Jeff

I can assure you they aren't any less accurate. You do have to get a load that works with the bullet. At 15 yards from a rest you ought to be shooting inside an inch. If you are not then I would suggest you work on your trigger pull. What gun are you using them in? 4.1 gr of 231 under 124 gr lead truncated cone bullets makes PF for Production and are very accurate in a number of my 9MM guns. Works well with RN bullets as well. 3" at 15 yards is not bench rest accuracy in a handgun I don't think.

Take Care

Bob

[cnote]

In my first attempts at reloading 9MM Berry plated with WSF for a CZ75, I have achieved better accuracy when shooting 147 grain bullets at a higher PF, around 135-7 rather than hovering around a safe 130. I took some experimenting with different loads. I always shot blazer out of it before reloading, so I went with their OAL and never deviated until i tried some precision blk bullets at 147 , and they wouldn't function reliably in the gun, so i changed the OAL, but same results as the higher PF gave better accuracy.

May be the gun, or the powder, but the oal wasn't the factor in the accuracy.

I have been known to be wrong.

[G-ManBart]

Why are plated LESS accuarte than lead? They would seem to be more consistant, or am I wrong? They just LOOK nice... lol

Jeff

I can assure you they aren't any less accurate.

I can't believe that. There are just too many cases of people having guns that simply will not, in any way, shoot plated bullets accurately. Take those same guns and put a quality jacketed bullet in them and in most cases you'll get good accuracy with almost any powder and any velocity within a pretty broad range.

Assuming we're talking modern firearms and not something like a Peacemaker setup for lead, I can't recall the last time (if ever) I've heard someone say they could get good accuracy using a good jacketed bullet. We hear it all the time about plated, sometimes with moly/black bullets and sometimes with cast lead, but almost never with jacketed.

Talk to the folks trying to get 1" accuracy at 50yds and they're going to laugh at the idea of plated bullets.

To the original poster I'd second the idea of ordering some MG 147s and see how those work since your gun seems to prefer the heavier weights. R,

Edited January 22, 2009 by G-ManBart

[JeffWard]

Okay, ZERO or MG 147's, over TiteGroup or 231. Concensus has Jacketed stuff as the most accurate.

Start around 130PF, and slowly work up to higher PF, until I get the best combo of recoil and accuracy...

The Barrel: Like many other owners of the new S&W PRO Series, I had early issue with a rough and tight chamber, resulting in extraction issues with a hot gun. I've read posts from at leats 4 other PRO owners with the same issue. I had the chamber polished, which cured my extraction issues 100%, and I may be crazy, but I think I've LOST some accuracy with the smoothed chamber. Was too much material removed? Do I now have a "loose" chamber now, resulting in inconsistant seating, and diminished accuracy, or am I just over-thinking this, and seeing things that aren't there?

I remember shooting tighter groups before the chamber work... All factory ammo, 99% WWB.

RE trigger control, I don't think that's an issue. I'm shooting test groups off a bench, and a sand bag. The gun is solid, supported under the frame, and the trigger is pulled very smoothly with a suprise break. I'm taking the human out of the loop as much as possible. My basic trigger technique is sound, as I shoot ragged 1" holes off-hand at 7-10 yards with this gun. (My Avatar is a 10yd/1,5" group) I'm not getting 1.5" groups off SAND BAGS with my reloads!

Also... ALL of my reloads, 125s and 147s are hitting an inch lower at 10 yards than factory loads. WWB and Blazer hit at the top edge of the front sight blade at 10 yards. (Perfect) These are both 115gr rounds. The heavier 125 and 147 gr bullets hit, on average, and inch lower. I have a fiber optic factory front sight, and flat black factory rear... If this continues with my load development, should I file a bit off the front to raise POI? How much metal will produce 1" at 10 Yards??? There is plenty of metal above the fiber-optic dot on the sight... I fact, I'm considering losing the FO sight, and getting a flat blade, painted red or orange... I think the FO is throwing off my vertical sight allignment at speed, since I'm use to a three-dot arrangement on my carry guns, and previous guns...

Finally... What's the BEST mechanical accuracy anyone here has achieved with an M&P??? I understand the 1" and 2" guns (at 25-50 yards) are all bushing-barrel, $3000-4000, Hand-Built Open/Limited guns... What is possible with a tweaked "combat" gun, like the M&P 5"???

Suggestions?

Thanks for all the inputs!!!!

Love the wealth of knowledge, and willingness to share on BE!!!!

JeffWard

Edited January 22, 2009 by JeffWard

[Darrell]

Here is my attached data for my Pro. Currently the most accurate load is 5.4 of power pistol with a M. G. 124 jhp at 1.120. I shoot about 1" 5 shot groups at 25 yds if I do my part from the bench. I got 1.1" out the ransom rest. I plan to lower the OAL to 1.100 and check accuracy again. In all my other guns the M. G. 124 jhp shot most accurate at 1.100.

[JeffWard]

I downloaded your stats... Looks good.

Do the MG 124s over PowerPistol shoot CONSISTANTLY that tight, or is that the best of the best?

Have you tried 147s with anything but the Clays? I like the 147 feel/speed. Have you gotten closer to 2-3" at 25yds with ANY 147s?

How is the recoil on the Power Pistol? It may be the most accurate, but is it pleasant to shoot (and fast)?

Thanks,

Jeff

[AzShooter]

Could be the problem is the Berry Bullets. I've had bad luck with them.

Their weighs are off and their sizes in the same box have been off. I understand someone may have put the wrong bullets in my box but they wouldn't own up to it.

Out of 1000 158 grainers more than 700 turned out to be .355 and only 154 - 156 grains. They told me I didn't know how to use a scale or a micrometer.

I simply do not use Berry anymore.

[JeffWard]

I ordered 1000 ZERO 147s through Roze...

Now I wait... LOL

Lots of 124gr Berrys for practice ammo... Loaded over Bullseye...

JW

[Darrell]

The power pistol load is very consistant accuracy wise in all of my 9mm's. Recoil is snappier than with TG or 231, but I prefer accuracy over recoil. I have a Ransom Rest and most of the time I shoot 10 shot groups with it. Over sand bags I do 3 5-shot averages, so some of my data may not be understood correctly. My EAA limited is my most accurate 9mm and that is my main load development gun. It shoots 3/4" 5 shot groups with P.P. all the time. The best 5- shot avg in my M&P and G17 with this load does 1-1.2 inches. Loads with T.G. or 231 do 1" or so in the EAA, and 1.5 to 2 inches in the M&P and G17 all of this is 25 yard sand bag rest. I did notice more variation in accuracy when the temps here drop below 40 with T.G. and 231, but my P.P. load stayed pretty much the same. I used to shoot 147gr bullets and love them, but my XD hated them so I switched to 124jhp M. G. I plan to revisit 147's with my M&P Pro and do another Ransom rest evaluation with different powders later next month. I loaded a few lead 147's and my M&P doesn't like them group wise (4-5 inches) but they sure do feel good. Like shooting my .22. I hope it will like jacketed better and be as accurate as my 124's.

[JThompson]

My Beretta is a tack driver with 125 Lead from Jim at S&S casting. I still have around 50 or so I could ship them to you is you want to try them out....

http://shop.snscasting.com/product.sc?cate...mp;productId=47

Edited January 25, 2009 by JThompson

[Darrell]

I have some 125 MBC's. What powder primer and OAL are you using with S&S? I haven't tried an Accuracy test with lead bullets in my 9mm like I did with my .45. I haven't had good luck with lead 147 in my plastic guns, but they are ok in my EAA.

[JThompson]

I have some 125 MBC's. What powder primer and OAL are you using with S&S? I haven't tried an Accuracy test with lead bullets in my 9mm like I did with my .45. I haven't had good luck with lead 147 in my plastic guns, but they are ok in my EAA.

4.2 gr 231

OAL - 1.12

That was an EAA too. Tanfo Stock.

Careful on the pressure..

All my groups were off-hand, but it will shoot quarters or better.

Edited January 25, 2009 by JThompson

[hanexp]

<<Also... ALL of my reloads, 125s and 147s are hitting an inch lower at 10 yards than factory loads. WWB and Blazer hit at the top edge of the front sight blade at 10 yards. (Perfect) These are both 115gr rounds. The heavier 125 and 147 gr bullets hit, on average, and inch lower. I have a fiber optic factory front sight, and flat black factory rear... If this continues with my load development, should I file a bit off the front to raise POI? How much metal will produce 1" at 10 Yards??? There is plenty of metal above the fiber-optic dot on the sight... I fact, I'm considering losing the FO sight, and getting a flat blade, painted red or orange... I think the FO is throwing off my vertical sight allignment at speed, since I'm use to a three-dot arrangement on my carry guns, and previous guns...

Finally... What's the BEST mechanical accuracy anyone here has achieved with an M&P??? I understand the 1" and 2" guns (at 25-50 yards) are all bushing-barrel, $3000-4000, Hand-Built Open/Limited guns... What is possible with a tweaked "combat" gun, like the M&P 5"??? >>

Regarding accuracy with the M&P Pro, I received a test target when my gun was returned to me from "repair". I too was shooting groups around 2 - 2.5" with my Pro at 15 yards hand held with 124g plated that were consitently low. The test target from S&W consisted of 5 shots, hand held with Winchester 115g fmj that measured under 0.75". The target compares favorably with the one that came with my Wilson Combat. Personally, I can't shoot a group like that with my Pro, even from a bench, but I know the gun can do it. Based on the comments here, think I'll try some 115g fmj s also.

Edited January 27, 2009 by hanexp

[fiddler]

The power pistol load is very consistant accuracy wise in all of my 9mm's. Recoil is snappier than with TG or 231, but I prefer accuracy over recoil. I have a Ransom Rest and most of the time I shoot 10 shot groups with it. Over sand bags I do 3 5-shot averages, so some of my data may not be understood correctly. My EAA limited is my most accurate 9mm and that is my main load development gun. It shoots 3/4" 5 shot groups with P.P. all the time. The best 5- shot avg in my M&P and G17 with this load does 1-1.2 inches. Loads with T.G. or 231 do 1" or so in the EAA, and 1.5 to 2 inches in the M&P and G17 all of this is 25 yard sand bag rest. I did notice more variation in accuracy when the temps here drop below 40 with T.G. and 231, but my P.P. load stayed pretty much the same. I used to shoot 147gr bullets and love them, but my XD hated them so I switched to 124jhp M. G. I plan to revisit 147's with my M&P Pro and do another Ransom rest evaluation with different powders later next month. I loaded a few lead 147's and my M&P doesn't like them group wise (4-5 inches) but they sure do feel good. Like shooting my .22. I hope it will like jacketed better and be as accurate as my 124's.

How did the 147s work out in your M&P?

[Darrell]

I haven't had good luck with 147's in my pro. I just shot some Atlanta Arms in all 3 of my 9's and the plastic guns didn't group as well as I would have liked. G-17 shot a 3.4" 5 shot avg at 25yds, Pro did 2.71, and EAA Limited did 1.14. Seems like my guns really like 124 better than 147. I may try some 115's and 121 IFP and see what happens. I'm going back to T.G. or 231 due to cost and less snappiness, but Power Pistol is still the most accurate load I ever used. For the matches I shoot T.G has worked better for me in split times.