To DQ or not to DQ

[kgunz11]

So I was RO'ing this guy yesterday and the stage required a table start with a loaded gun placed on the tape in the center of the table, shooter was to be in a sitting position. The guy loads his gun and puts it on the table with the muzzle facing the galley/parking lot. Fortunately the table was on the left end of the stage and most everyone was standing in the center of the stage, so it wasn't directly pointed at anyone. I stop the shooter, but don't yell "STOP", and say something to the more experienced person standing behind me which is an RO and is keeping score. Now I am not an RO, but am trying to learn as much as possible. I read the rule book often and am trying to soak in as much information as I can. So the score keeper does the "Stop" thing, but I don't think anyone else heard him other than the shooter and myself. He told the guy his gun was oriented in such a way it was breaking the 180. I asked if he was right handed, and he replied that he was, but because of his big honking mag release he couldn't start with the gun on the other side. So the guy turned his gun a little and said "ok". He was STILL breaking the 180 and acted a little pissy when I showed him where the 180 was. I guess because I never shot there before and was a new guy he thought I was an idiot or something. The score keeper backed me up on the imaginary 180 line and the guy spun the gun on the table a little more and say down.

I know I should have yelled "STOP" when he put the gun on the table in the first place, but I didn't. I made a mistake. I was wanting the more experienced official Range Officer and frequent shooter at the club to do it. I already had one altercation on the very first stage with another guy that was allowing bullets to pass through hard cover walls and still score them (another story). I showed him the hole and where the jacket exploded all over the target, it was an obvious hit, but I let it go when he asked me who I was and told me to "get the f*** off his range". Being the previous little issue, I was hoping the other RO on the stage would make the call. He was comfortable with allowing the guy to move his gun and let him roll, so I should have been too right?

I hate not knowing if I did the right thing or not. I don't want to DQ someone as no one would, but I am not afraid to do it if I think it is an unsafe act. I know what this gentleman did was unsafe, and if his handgun had gone off during his awkward pick up it would have shot someone's vehicle, or worse.

It makes me where I don't even want to help out by running the timer. I watch for all the normal things, finger in the TG, muzzle direction on reloads, sweeping on door opens and what not. I really want to go to an RO class, and there is one scheduled 3 hours away that I would attend, but it is the same weekend as the Max/Travis class.

I guess I'm done with my rant, I just feel horrible about the whole thing. The fact that as the responsible person with the timer, being an acting range safety officer, I let an unsafe act go...

[XRe]

You were right in both cases. Mikes for shoot throughs and DQ for breaking the 180. Which range were you at for which USPSA match (so I can avoid it in the future...)??

[nashvillebill]

Sometimes new faces get no respect from local boys at their home range, especially if the home boys are bullys or pissy whiners. You were right to point these violations out to them, and given the situation you were right to let it go. With any luck they will let that behavior slip outside of their cozy nest and be "educated" in the ways of sportsmanlike conduct.

[JThompson]

You were right in both cases. Mikes for shoot throughs and DQ for breaking the 180. Which range were you at for which USPSA match (so I can avoid it in the future...)??

Agreed and +100 on not shooting there.

[AzShooter]

You did the right thing. Don't feel horrible. At least you stood up to your convictions and you were right to do so.

As time goes by you will be more comfortable with the commands and rules and can then easily take over the chores of clock and board duties.

Good luck.

[kgunz11]

Dave, I'd rather not mention the range. All in all it was a good experience for me in many ways. 70 shooters showed up for the match for 4 stages plus a classifier so I think they are doing something right. I kind of draw the drama out of people sometimes.

On the shoot through, it was near the edge of the barricade and I was asking the score keeper if he could determine if it was a partial hit or full caliber, unlike the first instance in which it happened (which was 4" from the edge of the barricade) and that shooter was given the Mike by a different RO. The stage was set up so hitting the barricade could have been real easy. The story gets much worse, but I don't want to drag all that out here in the forum.

Like I said, a learning experience. Next time, I plan to do the right thing for the benefit and safety of all the shooters involved, which also involves me taking an RO class before I will run a timer again, even at the local club level. I try to help out as much as possible, and sometimes my eagerness to help out gets me in trouble.

[Merlin Orr]

Sometimes it is just best to shake your head and let it slide..

Nashville said it well, IMO.

[kgunz11]

To everyone else, thanks for the words of encouragement. I was kind of put off by the guy that was so ugly to me letting his very young grandson run the shooter on the offending run, especially when the young man didn't even know the range commands. I don't know how many matches the lad has shot in, but he was given the commands as he did not know them and simply repeated them. Was he watching for fingers in the reload or 180 violations? Who knows, but his grandfather was trailing a few steps behind as was the score keeper. I would also like to comment I am all for getting the junior shooters involved, but I think that shooter should show more interest in paying attention so when he takes the timer he is familiar with the range commands (my hat goes off to Nelson and his young son Francisco for being RO certified, although the offending pair wasn't).

I am sure (I hope) this incident is by no means reflective of what normally goes on at this club.

[dcbfluff]

I think part of what you ran into was a result of you trying to do the right thing and help out by running the timer, yet not being 100% comfortable/confident making the DQ call. Unfortunately, as you point out, the RO is not there just to run the timer. I don't know anybody that wants or likes to command STOP and to DQ another shooter, and I think most folks will tell you they feel bad every time it happens, but it is a necessary part of the game. Recognizing the tension because of the incident at the earlier stage, and despite the fact you were trying to help, if you were not ready to make the DQ call you probably shouldn't have been RO'ing. As you know, for the most part, folks DQ themselves, and know it is their own actions and not the RO that DQ's them. This guy sounds like he didn't even understand he was doing something wrong, which is odd. Although the table start confuses things a little, this seems pretty straight up: pointing a loaded gun into the crowd is about as serious a safety infraction as you can get. I'm not sure I would want to shoot there again if I were you.

[kgunz11]

To clarify, his gun was not pointed at the crowd as they were in the center of the stage and the table was on the left side. His gun was just pointing at the parked cars and anyone walking by them.

Several others broke the 180 after the "make ready" command was given, but I was not running the timer. I told the RO running me I planned to reload going from right to left but that I was going to be very cognizant of the 180 when doing so and my upper body would reflect that. I have video of the stage, I guess I could upload it to my YouTube account or something.

The table was set up so that as you were standing in front of it the 180 was pretty close to your 6:00 and 12:00 position. The first array of targets were ahead of the shooter at the 1-2 o'clock position. If a right handed shooter is standing at the table and draws the gun to load it, the moment they insert the mag the muzzle is breaking the 180. I turned and faced the back berm, but others didn't and since I was not the RO, I didn't say anything. When racking the slide they were OK, but again, once the "make ready" command is given it is a hot range, bullet or no bullet, so breaking the 180 then is still a DQ.

[Flatland Shooter]

Kgunz,

I commend you on wanting to get involved and not just sit back and let everyone else do the work. Also know that you did make the right calls per the USPSA rule book.

The fact that you were new to the club should not have mattered if the "locals" truly want to run a safe and fair match. You just happened to locate a group of good ole boys that like to play by their own rules.

I recommend that you attend a NROI class and become a certified RO. It will give you a better understanding of the Blue Book and with understanding will come confidence in making the right calls.

And for what its worth, there are a lot more good clubs out there than bad ones.

Bill

[kgunz11]

I love shooting in USPSA and have met a ton of great people. Two of them invited me to shoot this match, and despite everything else I tried to enjoy myself. After the very first incidence, I didn't even want to score, but I felt the rest of the squad deserved the help and correct score sheets. There were 2 other people on the squad that did a tremendous amount in running the timer and keeping score, and I felt they deserved someone competent to score them or run the timer for them so I did so. Not saying anyone else wasn't competent, but personally, I don't want to be run by someone that doesn't know the commands or procedures, nor do I want a score keeper that forgets to record the time or the correct hits.

[rupie]

One thing I noticed in your comments was that you wanted to have the guy scoring to help out and make the call. If you are the RO it is up to you to call it. wether you DQ the guy is up to you if you are leary because of earlier I can understand that! Given the same situation I might have acted the same. One thing for sure I wouldnt shoot with people who acted like the first guy, and we wouldnt tolerate that crap at our range.

Edited January 19, 2009 by rupie

[JimmyZip]

Chew on this,

If the guy was able to set his loaded gun on a table, and by not breaking the 180, was still pointing the muzzle at something other than berms/downrange, then what kind of range layout are we talking about? This sounds to me like the range set up is not safe. Wherever I have shot, the targets are placed in three-sided bays. This sounds like the bay had a short side. If that was the case, they should think about where they are parking the cars. Even if you are out in the open, all cars/spectators, anything you don't want to get shot should be behind the 180. I guess I'm missing something.

..or am I?

[kgunz11]

I often bring out the best in people. Just my nature, you love me or you hate me. It's who I am and will most likely always be, even been called an "arrogant prick" before (prolly deserved it too ). Those that have known me for a while know how good of a person I am can overlook my downfalls and short comings, and they are the ones that have a loyal and faithful friend until the end.

I heard the older gentleman comment "I'm not going to let someone come in here and take over our range". He did apologize to me later for acting the way he did. I guess he was wanting to show his grandkids who was boss and all. Just because I wanted to go by the rules. In archery, benefit was always given to the shooter, even when it was undeserved. I'm glad USPSA has a rule book to guide everyone equally so that everyone is treated the same. Now if we could just get folks to read and follow the rules and not "give" points just because they are "close enough".

[JThompson]

Kgunz,

I commend you on wanting to get involved and not just sit back and let everyone else do the work. Also know that you did make the right calls per the USPSA rule book.

The fact that you were new to the club should not have mattered if the "locals" truly want to run a safe and fair match. You just happened to locate a group of good ole boys that like to play by their own rules.

I recommend that you attend a NROI class and become a certified RO. It will give you a better understanding of the Blue Book and with understanding will come confidence in making the right calls.

And for what its worth, there are a lot more good clubs out there than bad ones.

Bill

I think all I have to do is follow Bill around typing +1s

[kgunz11]

Chew on this,

If the guy was able to set his loaded gun on a table, and by not breaking the 180, was still pointing the muzzle at something other than berms/downrange, then what kind of range layout are we talking about? This sounds to me like the range set up is not safe. Wherever I have shot, the targets are placed in three-sided bays. This sounds like the bay had a short side. If that was the case, they should think about where they are parking the cars. Even if you are out in the open, all cars/spectators, anything you don't want to get shot should be behind the 180. I guess I'm missing something.

..or am I?

Bay has 3 sides, remember, his gun has the mag release facing up, and not on the table as a normal right handed person starts. When he repositioned his gun into the final position, it was parallel with the 180 and facing a side berm. What gets me is him being upset that after he "kinda" turned the gun a little it was still breaking the 180 and he got pissed at me for asking him to turn it more. He then argued with me about where the 180 was, but the score keeper confirmed my account on the 180. I wanted to put the timer down and go home.

[JimmyZip]

We had a member of this forum come to our match and quote the rules to a nice guy with a bad temper. It was one of the highlights of that match. I get tickled to this day when I think of it. (Thanks ChuckS)

When we sign up for a USPSA match, we are signing up to play by the rules in the book. If people don't like that, they can come bye tomorrow or the next weekend for another match that suits their liking.

I don't mind arrogance at all, as long as you play by the game like I do. Even then as long as your safe I don't really care. I shoot for me and I work at the range for those of us that are really into it and pay their dues.

But I understand letting a guy know he's unsafe. He can pitch his ego, I'm looking out for me and you.

[Vulture]

When i was "learning" to be an RO i did it with a group of shooters who i have shot with for over a year. I knew them, they knew me, there was trust. I would not RO for anyone i had not shot with before if i was not a certified RO. They always have the trump card on you. If you make a bad call or if a situation comes up like you encountered it is much easier to deal with when you know everyone and they know you. They know you are not trying to take over and you know who the bad tempers are. Once you are an official RO you are on solid ground. They can't say "What do you know, your not an RO anyway." You will still make bad calls. I know i have probably given people points they didn't deserve, and not given people points they did deserve, but thats part of the learning curve. One thing i know is i have never made a bad call when it comes to safety. You will become more comfortable the more you do it and the questionable calls will go away somewhat. But people are always going to say its an alpha when you think its a charlie, just be consistant with everyone. if you RO by the rule book you can't go wrong. There have been days when i have given the timer to someone else because i have not been able to focus completely. If my head is not screwed on straight i wont RO. And an issue with tempers can unscrew your head in a hurry. Give the timer to someone else until you get your sh!t together. Fourtuneatly we always have plenty of people willing to RO so sometimes you don't have to worry about it at all. I applaud your desire to become an RO. The more the better. The good days out number the bad thats for sure.

SV

[SharonAnne9x23]

Not a DQ situation. I was the RO and scoring targets. I called a No Shoot hit. The shooter started up with the "it didn't break the line" crap. He started asking his friends for support thinking I would change my mind. All of his friends told him he was wrong. I got right in his face and loudly said " what is it? Since I have long hair and boobs I don't know what I am doing?" He very sheepishly apologized.

Sometimes it is being the new guy, sometimes it is just being a woman. When you are right it should not matter.

[boz1911]

I don't know where you were at Bobby, but you damn sure know that on our squad yesterday none of that crap would have been tolerated. We had a couple of stages with 180 possibilities and a backup stage. Even with one brand new shooter no one commited any safety violations. Since I do a lot of shooting with 45DV8 rules are frequently discussed. The rules apply to everybody.

Edited January 19, 2009 by boz1911

[High Lord Gomer]

To everyone else, thanks for the words of encouragement. I was kind of put off by the guy that was so ugly to me letting his very young grandson run the shooter on the offending run, especially when the young man didn't even know the range commands. I don't know how many matches the lad has shot in, but he was given the commands as he did not know them and simply repeated them. Was he watching for fingers in the reload or 180 violations? Who knows, but his grandfather was trailing a few steps behind as was the score keeper. I would also like to comment I am all for getting the junior shooters involved, but I think that shooter should show more interest in paying attention so when he takes the timer he is familiar with the range commands (my hat goes off to Nelson and his young son Francisco for being RO certified, although the offending pair wasn't).

That is just plain stupidity. My 11 year old son has asked on many occasions to "run the timer". I have explained to him (also on many occasions...we have thick heads in our family) that running the timer is the least important part of being an RO. I, too, have not yet been able to attend an RO class and I prefer to score than RO.

Where is this class within 3 hours? I might be able to make that one.

[Bret Heidkamp]

My 2 cents:

Don't let the meat heads run you off. You're in the right, stand your ground. That range NEEDS people like you to attend their matches. Also sounds like their SC needs to attend a few of their matches.

[kgunz11]

To everyone else, thanks for the words of encouragement. I was kind of put off by the guy that was so ugly to me letting his very young grandson run the shooter on the offending run, especially when the young man didn't even know the range commands. I don't know how many matches the lad has shot in, but he was given the commands as he did not know them and simply repeated them. Was he watching for fingers in the reload or 180 violations? Who knows, but his grandfather was trailing a few steps behind as was the score keeper. I would also like to comment I am all for getting the junior shooters involved, but I think that shooter should show more interest in paying attention so when he takes the timer he is familiar with the range commands (my hat goes off to Nelson and his young son Francisco for being RO certified, although the offending pair wasn't).

That is just plain stupidity. My 11 year old son has asked on many occasions to "run the timer". I have explained to him (also on many occasions...we have thick heads in our family) that running the timer is the least important part of being an RO. I, too, have not yet been able to attend an RO class and I prefer to score than RO.

Where is this class within 3 hours? I might be able to make that one.

The class is in Florida near the Georgia line. If you are familiar with the Jacksonville - Fernadina area, this is where. If you want more info I can hook you up with the persons in charge. I really want to go to one, but there is no way I can make this one.

[kgunz11]

I don't know where you were at Bobby, but you damn sure know that on our squad yesterday none of that crap would have been tolerated. We had a couple of stages with 180 possibilities and a backup stage. Even with one brand new shooter no one commited any safety violations. Since I do a lot of shooting with 45DV8 rules are frequently discussed. The rules apply to everybody.

Boz, had IMA45DV8 been there, I wouldn't have been running the timer anyway. I guess I could look back over the names on my squad and tell you how many were RO certified, but I assure you the number would be VERY low. I'm pretty sure 2 of them were, and the older guy was at one time, but his expired in '05 and even then he didn't seem to be very hip on the rules.

There were several issues with targets not getting taped, but for the most part the whole squad participated in helping tape. The one stage where there was an issue with taping 2 particular targets several times was with some activating targets, and it was his grandsons resetting those targets.

At 2 of the local clubs I shoot at regularly I do run the timer a bit, but I have been shooting with those guys since I began, and they have watched me grow and learn the rules, and they know I am watching everything. They are comfortable with me running them. Being the new guy isn't always easy.