I just don't get it,am I missing something?

[nm3gnr]

I have pistols chambered for both,my .40's hold 16 and my .45's hold 13. To me,the recoil of the .45 is so much more pleasant than the recoil of the .40,ie the 45 is a push where as the .40 is snappier when both are loaded to the same major power factor,the 40 has to be loaded to near maximum chamber pressure to make major

I never imagined that the .40 was close to max at major PF ???????? I could be wrong ?

Winchester White Box is usually at about 180pf in my gun and I load to a 170pf.

[G-ManBart]

I have pistols chambered for both,my .40's hold 16 and my .45's hold 13. To me,the recoil of the .45 is so much more pleasant than the recoil of the .40,ie the 45 is a push where as the .40 is snappier when both are loaded to the same major power factor,the 40 has to be loaded to near maximum chamber pressure to make major

I never imagined that the .40 was close to max at major PF ???????? I could be wrong ?

Winchester White Box is usually at about 180pf in my gun and I load to a 170pf.

You're not wrong at all. Most factory ammo makes major easily. Heck, VV lists loads as high as 223PF in their guide so making 165-170 isn't really pushing it.

[Jake Di Vita]

Good points so far...

Also, that is accurate. Figure a load costing you a minimum of .5, if it goes perfectly....while moving.

[ciscoip]

SNIP

Oh ya, one more thing, capacity is the reason. If we could get 9mm safely to major and without a comp to tame all that gas

push then Limited would be all 9mm. 140mm magazine would then give you 23,24,25 !! .40 is the smallest cartridge in

diameter to make a controlable uncompensated major PF ...

Actually, the only reason why 9mm doesn't rule Limited is because USPSA and IPSC have a minimum bore diameter...period. Comps at the end of a barrel have no bearing on pressure at the chamber. Heck, guys running 6" Limited guns (even 5" guns) would be able to make major safer than guys running Open 9mm shorty guns...they have more barrel length for increased velocity to make 9mm major compared to guys running Open guns with shorty barrels.

[el pres]

SNIP

Oh ya, one more thing, capacity is the reason. If we could get 9mm safely to major and without a comp to tame all that gas

push then Limited would be all 9mm. 140mm magazine would then give you 23,24,25 !! .40 is the smallest cartridge in

diameter to make a controlable uncompensated major PF ...

Actually, the only reason why 9mm doesn't rule Limited is because USPSA and IPSC have a minimum bore diameter...period. Comps at the end of a barrel have no bearing on pressure at the chamber. Heck, guys running 6" Limited guns (even 5" guns) would be able to make major safer than guys running Open 9mm shorty guns...they have more barrel length for increased velocity to make 9mm major compared to guys running Open guns with shorty barrels.

Right, comps to tame the recoil of a major 9mm load not chamber presure !! And one reason rules state a minimum

diameter is to keep it safer. A guy starting out in reloading should probably not be trying all sorts of 9 major loads

in a plastic unsupported chamber gun. Although they are perfectly safe "with expirience", it is not something an organization

should encourage.

I shot a match last month with a stock XD with major 9 powerpistol loads. Wewh !! It must have took a 1/2 sec between shots

just to bring that sucker back down. Oh and the fireball !!

Edited January 3, 2009 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[gmantwo]

There are many, many advantages to shooting a smaller cased round than the .45. Round count is one, but the major advantage is quicker cycling. The .45 is so pleasant, even at major power, because of the lazy, slow cycle of the slide. The power builds slowly in that big ole case and everything takes it's own sweet time getting done. I believe even a relatively "slow" shooter could pull the trigger twice on a .45 before the slide finishes it's trip. Try that with your 9 or .40, it just isn't possible. Check your split times with your .45 and then with a 9 or .40, you'll see what I mean.

[Jake Di Vita]

I believe even a relatively "slow" shooter could pull the trigger twice on a .45 before the slide finishes it's trip.

Well most slides cycle in around .06. So I disagree...

I can shoot the same speed with my .45 as I can with a 9mm or .40. As can many many others.

[gmantwo]

If you look at the progression of the pistol within IPSC, everyone started with the .45, as did I. But in the search for improved times, (because once you shoot nearly all A's, time is where you improve) the cycle speed is VERY inportant. The 38 Super was next, because pressure builds fast and cycle times are improved, but pressure and price made 38 Super hard to live with. The slightly shorter 9x23 came along then to try and get by the 9mm major restriction. I remember Robbie Leatham shooting the 9x25 for a short time, a funky little round(he even offered me his gun at the Nationals once, to take up to a practice range and try it out. Glad I didn't take him up on it or I might have put one together, and then I'd have another dinasaur, lol). Now nearly every competitive shooter in open is shooting the Major 9, short case, quick cycle, cheap brass, functions fine, it all comes together there. I can easily shoot my major 9 or my limited .40 quicker than I can my .45, I'm talking double tap splits. I'm pulling the trigger faster because the sights are coming into alignment on the target faster. All 3 guns are 1911's, although the 9 is comp'd and so it naturally should return to target faster.

By the way, how did you measure slide cycle time??

My fastest measured splits with the .45 are in the .24-.26 range. With my 9 I can get .16-19 and with the .40 it's in the .19-.22 range. But that's just me

Another reason the .40 is ahead of the .45 in the Production is cost. Brass is cheaper, bullets are more for your money and it requires less powder.

[Chills1994]

gmantwo wrote:

The .45 is so pleasant, even at major power, because of the lazy, slow cycle of the slide

Jake DiVita wrote:

Well most slides cycle in around .06. So I disagree...

Well, besides anecdotal evidence based on "feel" has anyone actually done any tests or highspeed camera work to measure how fast different caliber'ed slides cycles.

Besides the Tripp Research video here ??

[G-ManBart]

If you look at the progression of the pistol within IPSC, everyone started with the .45, as did I. But in the search for improved times, (because once you shoot nearly all A's, time is where you improve) the cycle speed is VERY inportant. The 38 Super was next, because pressure builds fast and cycle times are improved, but pressure and price made 38 Super hard to live with. The slightly shorter 9x23 came along then to try and get by the 9mm major restriction. I remember Robbie Leatham shooting the 9x25 for a short time, a funky little round(he even offered me his gun at the Nationals once, to take up to a practice range and try it out. Glad I didn't take him up on it or I might have put one together, and then I'd have another dinasaur, lol). Now nearly every competitive shooter in open is shooting the Major 9, short case, quick cycle, cheap brass, functions fine, it all comes together there. I can easily shoot my major 9 or my limited .40 quicker than I can my .45, I'm talking double tap splits. I'm pulling the trigger faster because the sights are coming into alignment on the target faster. All 3 guns are 1911's, although the 9 is comp'd and so it naturally should return to target faster.

By the way, how did you measure slide cycle time??

My fastest measured splits with the .45 are in the .24-.26 range. With my 9 I can get .16-19 and with the .40 it's in the .19-.22 range. But that's just me

Another reason the .40 is ahead of the .45 in the Production is cost. Brass is cheaper, bullets are more for your money and it requires less powder.

A lot of this has me scratching my head. Yes, .45s were pretty much universal in the beginning. .Yes, 38 Super came up next, but it wasn't for faster splits based on cycle time....it was when comps became common and a few guys managed to make major with .38 Super using heavy bullets (I think they used 158gr in the very beginning) and Blue Dot powder. The higher gas volume made the comps work better and you got two extra rounds in the gun. The 9x23 wasn't next. 9x19 was actually next until rules changes forced it out (higher PF and specifically prohibiting it from Major). Then the 9x21 got popular, but even at it's height, more people were still using .38 Super in Open. 9x23 never really had a huge following, but it came after the 9x21 by at least a couple of years. The 9x25 was even less popular. I shot a match with Robby sometime around 91 or 92, if my memory is correct, and he said he had just finished the new 9x25 guns (this was in Tucson) and was finally trying them in matches. I recall Kippi Boykin (now Leatham) trying one out and it was bouncing her around pretty well....heck the second shot was lower than the first! I was talking to Robby about those guns at last year's WSSSC and he said he still has two in the safe and that they used to regularly crack the dustcover from the downward pressure the comp was making. It worked great, but lacked capacity so it was a dead end.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that nearly every competitor is using 9mm Major in Open. There are a bunch, no doubt, but I'd be willing to bet that when we see the data from the 2008 Open Nationals .38 Super/Supercomp will still be in the lead by a decent margin. I think only one guy on my squad at Nationals had a 9mm Major Open gun...everybody else in Open was shooting 38SC. Further, almost every single top level Open shooter is using 38SC now. I actually can't think of any that are using 9mm, but I'm sure there are a few out there.

Cycle time for a 1911/2011 has been recognized as being right around .6s for a while now, but I'm not sure who first documented it. It wouldn't be too hard with a high speed video camera that shows time lapse.

[Nik Habicht]

I can easily shoot my major 9 or my limited .40 quicker than I can my .45, I'm talking double tap splits. I'm pulling the trigger faster because the sights are coming into alignment on the target faster. All 3 guns are 1911's, although the 9 is comp'd and so it naturally should return to target faster.

By the way, how did you measure slide cycle time??

My fastest measured splits with the .45 are in the .24-.26 range. With my 9 I can get .16-19 and with the .40 it's in the .19-.22 range. But that's just me

And that leads you to the erroneous conclusion that it's cycle time that lets you shoot faster splits....

I'd buy a faster recoil impulse --- the .40 at major feels snappier than the .45, which feels snappier than my 9mm production loads --- but in practice all three return the sights in roughly the same time, because my splits with all three are about the same.....

I can't crank splits below ~ .16 with any of the guns or loads --- but I'm consistent with all three choices. One of my friends has no trouble ripping .11s --- with all three platforms, but he's really double tapping. (One sight picture, two pulls of the trigger....)

When you're able to consistently get off ~ 12 rounds per second you might be able to occasionally outrun the gun.....

[dbagwell]

A couple of things need mention, $ of brass and availability is a big one 45 vs. 40 !!

DC, Are you saying that .40 brass is cheaper and more available? I also assume you're referring to new brass, yes? Regarding used brass, it has been my observation that most people shooting .45 at the range don't pick up their brass. So it seems that fired brass is more available to me. Whatcha think?

[wide45]

... Regarding used brass, it has been my observation that most people shooting .45 at the range don't pick up their brass. ...

I've seen just the opposite. Everybody shooting .45 picks up brass. Most scrounge for every piece they can get. It's the .40 shooters that often don't care.

[Flexmoney]

I've seen just the opposite. Everybody shooting .45 picks up brass. Most scrounge for every piece they can get. It's the .40 shooters that often don't care.

+1

[dbagwell]

Hmmm, that's interesting. BTW, I'm only seeing this (.45 brass left) in non-practical shooting match/range situations...perhaps .45 brass is more sought after with competitive shooters???

[el pres]

I've seen just the opposite. Everybody shooting .45 picks up brass. Most scrounge for every piece they can get. It's the .40 shooters that often don't care.

+1

+2

In my area, except for one G-Man, that gets his .45 "free" from the big G., the few .45 shooters there are will push you out of the way to get to that brass. Come to think of it the .40 shooters are starting to do the same(me). All we got left on the ground is piles of worthless 9..

[Chills1994]

G-man Bart wrote:

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that nearly every competitor is using 9mm Major in Open. There are a bunch, no doubt, but I'd be willing to bet that when we see the data from the 2008 Open Nationals .38 Super/Supercomp will still be in the lead by a decent margin. I think only one guy on my squad at Nationals had a 9mm Major Open gun...everybody else in Open was shooting 38SC. Further, almost every single top level Open shooter is using 38SC now. I actually can't think of any that are using 9mm, but I'm sure there are a few out there.

I'm thinking it might be more of local thing WRT to who shoots what caliber in Open.

Around here in the St. Louis area, just about everyone shoots 9mm Major in Open.

There might be one or two who still shoot .38 Super... for now.

They are real easy to pick out. They are the ones on their hands and knees picking up their Super brass....

Besides the scarcity and the price of .38 Super brass, there might be two other reasons folks have gone to 9mm Major:

1. the availability of smiths who can fit a new 9mm barrel

2. a couple of indoor ranges that can supply 'em with bunches of once fired 9mm brass

newb dumb question mode on....

If all 3 or 4 calibers of 1911's / 2011's cycle equally fast, besides looking cool what's the point to all those slide lightening cuts?

Edited January 11, 2009 by Chills1994

[Nik Habicht]

newb dumb question mode on....

If all 3 or 4 calibers of 1911's / 2011's cycle equally fast, besides looking cool what's the point to all those slide lightening cuts?

Less reciprocating mass changes how the gun moves during cycling....

A friend --- who was used to shooting a CZ-75 in Production --- once commented that shooting my Glock 34s made him feel like he was shooting in a slow motion video....

He strongly preferred the snappier movement of the CZ-75....

I shot his gun and found it to be a lot like shooting a Glock 19 with hot 115s --- I didn't shoot it any faster or slower, but it certainly had a different feel....

Going back and forth between the 34 and a 26 I noticed that the 26 moves more violently than the 34 --- but that's simply my perception. The sights return the same way, and I can crank the same splits, until we get to far targets, where I need to be a bit more precise lining up the sights on the 26 to ensure the hit....

[G-ManBart]

G-man Bart wrote:

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that nearly every competitor is using 9mm Major in Open. There are a bunch, no doubt, but I'd be willing to bet that when we see the data from the 2008 Open Nationals .38 Super/Supercomp will still be in the lead by a decent margin. I think only one guy on my squad at Nationals had a 9mm Major Open gun...everybody else in Open was shooting 38SC. Further, almost every single top level Open shooter is using 38SC now. I actually can't think of any that are using 9mm, but I'm sure there are a few out there.

I'm thinking it might be more of local thing WRT to who shoots what caliber in Open.

Around here in the St. Louis area, just about everyone shoots 9mm Major in Open.

There might be one or two who still shoot .38 Super... for now.

They are real easy to pick out. They are the ones on their hands and knees picking up their Super brass....

Besides the scarcity and the price of .38 Super brass, there might be two other reasons folks have gone to 9mm Major:

1. the availability of smiths who can fit a new 9mm barrel

2. a couple of indoor ranges that can supply 'em with bunches of once fired 9mm brass

I'm sure there is some difference depending on where you are, but that doesn't really give an accurate picture of the whole. That's why I mentioned my Nationals squad that had only 1 guy shooting 9mm and very few of the top shooters using it. I've shot matches in a bunch of different parts of the country (7 or 8 states) in the past year and there were still more Supers on every squad that I can recall. I should start a poll and see who's using what...of course that's just BE folks, but it would be interesting.

From talking with a couple of the best gunsmiths around, they seem to think that there aren't that many guys who truly know what it takes to make a 9mm Open gun run properly. I'm not so sure availability of smiths who can fit barrels enters into it much, if at all.

Free range brass is the only way to make 9mm Major cost-effective. If you're paying for it, it's going to wind up costing the same or more as any other caliber since new it costs about the same and it doesn't last as long if you reload it. As more and more police departments go away from 9mm I wonder if the trend will change. Lots of civilians will continue to use it, but not in the volume that LEO's do....which has to have factored into the price and availability.

[rvb]

If you look at the progression of the pistol within IPSC, everyone started with the .45, as did I. But in the search for improved times, (because once you shoot nearly all A's, time is where you improve) the cycle speed is VERY inportant. The 38 Super was next, because pressure builds fast and cycle times are improved, but pressure and price made 38 Super hard to live with. The slightly shorter 9x23 came along then to try and get by the 9mm major restriction. I remember Robbie Leatham shooting the 9x25 for a short time, a funky little round(he even offered me his gun at the Nationals once, to take up to a practice range and try it out. Glad I didn't take him up on it or I might have put one together, and then I'd have another dinasaur, lol). Now nearly every competitive shooter in open is shooting the Major 9, short case, quick cycle, cheap brass, functions fine, it all comes together there. I can easily shoot my major 9 or my limited .40 quicker than I can my .45, I'm talking double tap splits. I'm pulling the trigger faster because the sights are coming into alignment on the target faster. All 3 guns are 1911's, although the 9 is comp'd and so it naturally should return to target faster.

By the way, how did you measure slide cycle time??

My fastest measured splits with the .45 are in the .24-.26 range. With my 9 I can get .16-19 and with the .40 it's in the .19-.22 range. But that's just me

Another reason the .40 is ahead of the .45 in the Production is cost. Brass is cheaper, bullets are more for your money and it requires less powder.

Dont confuse how long it takes you personally to bring the gun out of recoil with how fast the slide cycles. To do so assumes that the slide isn't closed until you are back on target. All your splits are showing is that you control a 9 better than a 40 better than a 45? No real surprise there. But that does not imply that it takes .25 for the slide to close on a .45.

-rvb

Edited January 11, 2009 by rvb

[ppcgm]

This may be a stupid question,but why is the 40 S&W cartridge the caliber of choice in USPSA/IPSC shooting? What advantages does it offer over the 45 ACP?

I have pistols chambered for both,my .40's hold 16 and my .45's hold 13. To me,the recoil of the .45 is so much more pleasant than the recoil of the .40,ie the 45 is a push where as the .40 is snappier when both are loaded to the same major power factor,the 40 has to be loaded to near maximum chamber pressure to make major,but the 45 can be downloaded and still make major..less chance of a kaboom. I use 180's in the 40 and 200's in the 45.

My pistols are XD (m) in 40 and XD 45 Tactical and service in 45.

Like I stated earlier,this may be a stupid question,but I cannot see what the 40 offers over the 45 for competition,I can shoot my 45's faster and more accurately than my 40's, this based on actual times in matches.

Thanks in advance

How is your accuracy ? Do you shoot better when the load isn't recoiling as hard in the gun ? My .40 load only makes 135 power factor. But in my 5" XD I can usually shoot the stage clean with that load. So my score is the same as it would be if I was shooting major power. And I'm not nearly as tired by the time we're shooting the last stage of the day. Dunno about anyone else, but I shoot better when I'm not tired out too.

[technetium-99m]

I don't know if this will add anything but thought I'd mention it. After messing around with different bullet weights in 9mm and 45 I have found you can adjust the feel of your load to a great degree by changing the bullet weight. If you have a 45 and want snappy recoil mess around with 200 or 185 gr bullets. I have found that I personally like heavy bullets. I like my 147gr 9mm and my 230gr 45acp. When I get my 2011 together for limited I will probably like the 200gr 40 loads. Get a timer and see what works best for you. Also, if you just shoot local matches and have no ambition to shoot anything else then by all means shoot 45 in limited. At the local match level it probably won't hurt you too much.

Shoot what you like and be pleased, at the end of the day it's what really matters.

GT

[skip62]

Comps at the end of a barrel have no bearing on pressure at the chamber.

There's more to it than this. The comp keeps the barrel locked up longer to the slide which means the pressure is controlled by the chamber longer. If the barrel unlocks to quickly, the brass "will" blow out at the base, brass can not hold this kind of pressure without the chamber.

Be very careful running 9's to major in a stock gun, heck, be very careful running 38 Super to major in a stock gun.

[BBoyle]

If you ever watched from the side as some one shoots you will see that the slide is forward long before they break the next shot, even when firing extremely fast splits. There may still be motion with them managing the recoil but the slide is locked forward long before the recovery.

You can shoot 45 just as fast as 38sc or 9mm.

At a local level I would say that a .45 is not at that mutch of a disadvantage to a .40. I do not own a .40, only a Para 14 and I very seldom feel at a disadvantage to others at local matches. I am not about to go run it at an Area Match and feel the same way though.

Edited January 28, 2009 by BBoyle