Any opinion about this specific case in regards of quality for reloadi

[LoSTViKiNG]

Dear fellow shooters,

first off, I just signed up to this forum and I found already a lot of useful information! A collective thanks to all of you for providing!

I'd like to ask a specific question:

As I am a keen shooter I get more and more tired from buying overpriced factory ammunition which will work with my gun or not. Therefore I'll be reloading sooner or later.

To plan this, I am about to start building a stock of empty cartridges now so that I am prepared on day x, so to speak.

I recently bought some thousand rounds Hirtenberger (an ammo company here in Austria) 9mm Luger. Initially I planned to pick the spent brass and keep it for reloading it later. After shooting a few hundred of them I had to notice, that one in three of these cases rips lengthwise. (I will provide photos later)

I am now a bit careful as it seems that there are manufacturers out there producing crappy cases unsuitable for reloading.

I am now looking for a greater number of uniform cases from the same manufacturer to avoid the hassle dealing with lots of different brands (and qualities) of cases.

I came across this offer (http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=2068582).

I would like to ask if some of you know these cases (this very brand/make, i.e. DAG/RUAG) and could tell me about the actual quality of them. I don't want wo buy, say, 10.000 of them just to learn that they also rip apart or are otherwise unsuitable for reloading. The price is EUR 20 per 1000 which equals USD ~ 14,30. I am aware that this is a german/swiss brand and this is US based forum, so chances might be sort of reduced that anyone knows them, however I'd like to give it a try.

I'd also like to know if this is a fair price.

Any other comments in any regard highly appreciated!

Edited December 28, 2008 by LoSTViKiNG

[boz1911]

Welcome to the forums

Ripped brass sounds like really bad juju..

I shoot 9 major and only use Winchester, Remington, and Federal so I am unfamiliar with the brands you listed. Hopefully someone can answer this question for you. Price seems very fair though

BOZ

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'm unfamiliar with the brand, also, but a few thoughts:

1. I'm not concerned about "uniform cases from the same manufacturer" - I shoot what we call "range brass" = mixed brands picked up at the range, and they work very well for me.

2. Not positive, but isn't EUR 20 the equivalent of about $27 USD? That is quite a bit lower than we'd pay for new brass in the USA - we pay more like $150/1,000. But, very few people buy new brass, when we can buy used 9mm brass for $15 -$ 45 / 1,000. The brass does last for quite a few reloads, and used seems to work well for me. You are very lucky if you can buy brand new brass for $27 US/1,000 - but sounds like you might be buying used brass, not new for that price.

3. I'd be looking at your pistol and try to determine why it is "ripping" new brass. That sounds dangerous =- either the cartridges or the gun could be dangerous to you - I'd have a gunsmith check it all out - try the ammo in another gun and see if it "rips". I'd limit my shooting until I cleared up that little matter.

Welcome to the Forum, and good luck - hope you solve your problem.

Jack

I am now looking for a greater number of uniform cases from the same manufacturer to avoid the hassle dealing with lots of different brands (and qualities) of cases.

I would like to ask if some of you know these cases (this very brand/make, i.e. DAG/RUAG) and could tell me about the actual quality of them. I don't want wo buy, say, 10.000 of them just to learn that they also rip apart or are otherwise unsuitable for reloading. The price is EUR 20 per 1000 which equals USD ~ 14,30. I am aware that this is a german/swiss brand and this is US based forum, so chances might be sort of reduced that anyone knows them, however I'd like to give it a try.

I'd also like to know if this is a fair price.

[Graham Smith]

Grüß Gott und Willkommen zum Forum

It sounds like you have managed to find some "bargin basement" ammunition. I would be extremely hesitant to use any of this for reloading. Have you checked around your area to see if there are any shooting clubs? You should be able to find someone there who reloads and has information about good local sources of components. You might also check with your local police to see if anyone there is or knows sport shooters who reload.

DAG is German (Dynamit Nobel A-G, Troisdorf, Germany) and RUAG is Swiss (RUAG Ammotec Austria GmbH,Wiener Neudorf,Austria) AFAIK, both are very good companies.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Graham Smith

[Chris Keen]

Like Boz said you dont need to have all the same headstamp (manufacturer) brass, although it doesnt hurt. Mixed mfg. range brass is just fine for reloading and practicing with. Also you dont need to have 10,000 pieces. Start with 1,000 or 2,000 and go from there. It takes longer than you might think to reload when first starting out.

[warpspeed]

I would not be too worried if you bought 1000 and one case splits. if you have more than 1, then I'd scrap the brass and not reload.

Hirtenberger does make some pretty stout loads; +p+ type loads. Depending upon the gun and barrel chamber, a +p+ may split.

The brass shown on the link seems to be once fired but very clean. @ $ 40 US is seems in line for once fried brass. I'd buy it.

[D. Manley]

I would not be too worried if you bought 1000 and one case splits. if you have more than 1, then I'd scrap the brass and not reload.

Hirtenberger does make some pretty stout loads; +p+ type loads. Depending upon the gun and barrel chamber, a +p+ may split.

The brass shown on the link seems to be once fired but very clean. @ $ 40 US is seems in line for once fried brass. I'd buy it.

That's pretty much my thoughts too. AFAIK, the Hirtenberger stuff is pretty stiff subgun ammo not intended for handgun use. Depending on what it was fired in, I wouldn't think a few splits would be unexpected.

[Siphon Odesse]

That's pretty much my thoughts too. AFAIK, the Hirtenberger stuff is pretty stiff subgun ammo not intended for handgun use. Depending on what it was fired in, I wouldn't think a few splits would be unexpected.

Not sure if it's subgun ammo, but it's true HP makes some pretty tough loads. At least a few years back, the brass in the Hirtenberger cases was pretty hard, and prone to cracking. Also, they used to have a very tight primer pockets, so I never did like reloading them.

Regards,

Siphon

[Mapzter]

I would like to ask if some of you know these cases (this very brand/make, i.e. DAG/RUAG) and could tell me about the actual quality of them.

I've reloaded some with headstamp DAG - 9mm Luger SX, which are probably the same. I've had no trouble with them, and like that they are so clean when fired once. I think the flash hole is a little bit smaller than most brass, and may be too small for the standard Dillon decapper. I use a Lee decapping die, which works great with them.

The price sounds quite fair!

Welcome to the forums!

[LoSTViKiNG]

Thanks for your replies! I was offline (on holiday) during the last days, therefore this short delay.

"Not positive, but isn't EUR 20 the equivalent of about $27 USD?"

Yes, of course, you are correct, I did the conversion "wrong way" :-)

"...but sounds like you might be buying used brass, not new for that price."

Yes, it's used, one time fired factory load.

"I'd be looking at your pistol and try to determine why it is "ripping" new brass. That sounds dangerous =- either the cartridges or the gun could be dangerous to you - I'd have a gunsmith check it all out - try the ammo in another gun and see if it "rips". I'd limit my shooting until I cleared up that little matter."

I'll do so. Please keep in mind, that it is factory ammo. I shot some other brands (Sellier & Bellot, other Hirtenberger, GECO and some other) and neither of those cracked, at least I didn't notice. I have a Glock 19 and a Marlin Camp Gun in 9mm Luger and will try some of the "cracking" batch with these guns.

"Grüß Gott und Willkommen zum Forum"

Oh, vielen Dank für die nette Begrüßung! :-)

"I would be extremely hesitant to use any of this for reloading."

No, I will defintely not keep those for reloading, I trash them oder leave them on the range.

"Have you checked around your area to see if there are any shooting clubs? You should be able to find someone there who reloads and has information about good local sources of components."

Yes, there are a couple. One is specific for IPSC type of shooting. Some of the guys there are reloading, too.

"DAG is German (Dynamit Nobel A-G, Troisdorf, Germany) and RUAG is Swiss (RUAG Ammotec Austria GmbH,Wiener Neudorf,Austria) AFAIK, both are very good companies."

So I will give it a try and order 2000 pieces of this brass. I will keep you updated how it performs.

"Like Boz said you dont need to have all the same headstamp (manufacturer) brass, although it doesnt hurt. Mixed mfg. range brass is just fine for reloading and practicing with. Also you dont need to have 10,000 pieces. Start with 1,000 or 2,000 and go from there. It takes longer than you might think to reload when first starting out."

I think, the main thing is that it is more convenient than scanning the muddy-grassy ground of the range for the brass ;-) Eventually other brass will blend in anyway. It's supposed to be my initial stock. I think I will buy 2000 of them in the first place.

"I would not be too worried if you bought 1000 and one case splits. if you have more than 1, then I'd scrap the brass and not reload."

Yes, it is definitely more than 1 in 1000. I will not use this specific batch for reloading.

"AFAIK, the Hirtenberger stuff is pretty stiff subgun ammo not intended for handgun use."

I think, the packaging says "Sport" or something, which doesn't sound like military brass. I will provide some photos later.

"I think the flash hole is a little bit smaller than most brass, and may be too small for the standard Dillon decapper. I use a Lee decapping die, which works great with them."

Thanks for the hint! I'll keep that in mind if my decapping pin breaks apart ;-)

Edited January 1, 2009 by LoSTViKiNG

[Jaxshooter]

I shot 500 rounds of it in an MP5 on full auto and did not have any problems. Reload 50 and see how they look after you shoot them.

[LoSTViKiNG]

As promised, here are some pictures of the ripped Hirtenberger:

[Dick Ozinga]

As promised, here are some pictures of the ripped Hirtenberger:

Viking,

Try to get S&B cases, those with the red lacquered primers. The problem with us Europeans is that we normally don't have WIN, Speer and the other US brands in large quantities. I've reloaded 3000 S&B 9mm cases in the last year without problems. Magtech is like HP, a very hard brass so probably more prone to ripping.

I pick up my brass at the range but do sort everything: S&B, Speer Lawman, CBC / Magtech and GECO. The rest is for the recycle bin. There is a difference in brass that translates in worse performance at 25 for high power shooting, so I sort everything. I probably is not so much volume / powder capacity as the difference in crimp. It is difficult to get the crimp right when you use all sorts of brands.

Regards,

Dick

[LoSTViKiNG]

As promised, here are some pictures of the ripped Hirtenberger:

Viking,

Try to get S&B cases, those with the red lacquered primers. The problem with us Europeans is that we normally don't have WIN, Speer and the other US brands in large quantities. I've reloaded 3000 S&B 9mm cases in the last year without problems. Magtech is like HP, a very hard brass so probably more prone to ripping.

I pick up my brass at the range but do sort everything: S&B, Speer Lawman, CBC / Magtech and GECO. The rest is for the recycle bin. There is a difference in brass that translates in worse performance at 25 for high power shooting, so I sort everything. I probably is not so much volume / powder capacity as the difference in crimp. It is difficult to get the crimp right when you use all sorts of brands.

Regards,

Dick

Dick,

thanks for answering. Do you think the DAG/RUAG (Dynamit Nobel - offer on egun, see above) are worth trying?

Problem is, that there is actually no other way for me than buying brass. The quantities I can recover on the range are insufficient, not to mention the hassle to collect cases which are spread all over the place on the range.

LV

[Dick Ozinga]

As promised, here are some pictures of the ripped Hirtenberger:

Viking,

Try to get S&B cases, those with the red lacquered primers. The problem with us Europeans is that we normally don't have WIN, Speer and the other US brands in large quantities. I've reloaded 3000 S&B 9mm cases in the last year without problems. Magtech is like HP, a very hard brass so probably more prone to ripping.

I pick up my brass at the range but do sort everything: S&B, Speer Lawman, CBC / Magtech and GECO. The rest is for the recycle bin. There is a difference in brass that translates in worse performance at 25 for high power shooting, so I sort everything. I probably is not so much volume / powder capacity as the difference in crimp. It is difficult to get the crimp right when you use all sorts of brands.

Regards,

Dick

Dick,

thanks for answering. Do you think the DAG/RUAG (Dynamit Nobel - offer on egun, see above) are worth trying?

Problem is, that there is actually no other way for me than buying brass. The quantities I can recover on the range are insufficient, not to mention the hassle to collect cases which are spread all over the place on the range.

LV

Viking,

Have you asked non reloading friends at the club for their brass? A few guys giving you their once fired brass every time will add up. If only I'd kept all my 9mm brass from the 10 years I shot before I started reloading 9mm.....

Besides at my club there is a fairly strict policy of keeping the range clean, so the hassle is included in all my visits.

The DAG cases should be fine for reloading. The name brands should all have good QA/QC so the differences from lot to lot should be small. But there is a difference between brands, so keep that in mind when doing load development or change components. As for "wholesale" once fired brass, how long do 2000 cases last, before you have to go and look for new brass?

I import my rifle brass from the States and if you can get brass from Germany than you probably can get the cases from the States also. At the moment just 30.06 and 223 (2000 and 6000 so far), but when my 9mm cases run out I'll get a 10kg box from the states. I can pm you two names if interested. Both ship to Europe.

Regards,

Dick

Edited January 4, 2009 by Dick Ozinga