A question as a match official (MD)

[joecichlid]

Last Friday night after I had finished shooting my last stage for the night I was watching one of the other shooters taking on a stage I had designed and set up (oh the joys of being a MD at a club where no one wants to set up but I digress) when IT happened.

The shooter (a right handed shooter) was moving from the right hand side of the stage to the left while doing a reload and he breaks 180. I saw the shooter getting close to the 180 and I yelled stop just as the muzzle swept me and the RO was drawing his breath to yell stop. The shooter knew what he had done instantly, the RO knew what happened and thankfully no one got hurt.

Was I in the wrong to be the one who stopped the shooter since I wasn't the RO for that shooter even though I was the match director? The shooter was a little shaken and very appologetic to me for sweaping me. I know I am playing Monday quarterback here but I just want to know if I screwed up big time or not. Thanks in advance.

Joe W.

[JThompson]

Last Friday night after I had finished shooting my last stage for the night I was watching one of the other shooters taking on a stage I had designed and set up (oh the joys of being a MD at a club where no one wants to set up but I digress) when IT happened.

The shooter (a right handed shooter) was moving from the right hand side of the stage to the left while doing a reload and he breaks 180. I saw the shooter getting close to the 180 and I yelled stop just as the muzzle swept me and the RO was drawing his breath to yell stop. The shooter knew what he had done instantly, the RO knew what happened and thankfully no one got hurt.

Was I in the wrong to be the one who stopped the shooter since I wasn't the RO for that shooter even though I was the match director? The shooter was a little shaken and very appologetic to me for sweaping me. I know I am playing Monday quarterback here but I just want to know if I screwed up big time or not. Thanks in advance.

Joe W.

Were you the RM too? Otherwise, rules on the range aren't in your perview. That said, I'm yelling if I get swept. You can't yell stop muntil the 180 is broke and I give it bit after to make sure as long as I have it to give. Also, be careful yelling if you actually have a gun pointed at you... it might not be the best time to scare the shit out of the shooter.

Edited December 24, 2008 by JThompson

[Jim Norman]

As a spectator, you cannot call foot faults, BUT anyone can and should call safety. If the shooter is approaching the 180, be silent, that is the ROs duty to warn or not, once the shooter has shattered the 180, calling STOP is acceptable, Yes the RO was getting ready to do so, but you beat him by half a breath. I would have done the same thing. And this is not open to arbitration. I equate it to seeing someone sown range, you would certainly call stop as opposed to waiting for the RO to notice.

Jim

[larry cazes]

Had a similiar experience at one of our locals a couple of months back. Shooter moving right to left broke 180 pretty severely and his muzzle was pointing towards a group of shooters standing around in the bay. It was obvious that the RO wasnt gonna call it and was not in position to see it for sure so I called it out. Everyone including the shooter was OK wih it. TOP priority at a match is safety.

[Gary Stevens]

For those who have stated that they would call "stop" even if they were not acting as an RO, would you do this at every match, not just local? Would you do it at a state, secitonals, area match, or perhaps the nationals?

Just asking....

Gary

[warpspeed]

For those who have stated that they would call "stop" even if they were not acting as an RO, would you do this at every match, not just local? Would you do it at a state, secitonals, area match, or perhaps the nationals?

Just asking....

Gary

If I was the spectator having a gun pointed at me, yes. Every time.

[joecichlid]

I was the RM that night. But being the one who had a loaded gun pointed at him made my reflexes to yell a little faster than the RO behind the shooter. lol The main point of this post was to find out if there is a spacific rule that could be applied here? But in my mind I am wondering if I yelled stop as Joe the MD, Joe the RM or Joe the shooter who just had a gun pointed at him and about crapped himself.

Gary, this is an important question. Would another match official have the power to stop a shooter at a big match if they saw a major safety issue like this?

Joe W.

[joecichlid]

To help set the scene up a little: I was standing about 15 feet to the left of the shooter and about 10 feet behind his 180 line. Meaning he was about 40 to 50 degrees past the 180 line.

Joe W.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

For those who have stated that they would call "stop" even if they were not acting as an RO, would you do this at every match, not just local? Would you do it at a state, secitonals, area match, or perhaps the nationals?

Just asking....

Gary

Yep... if it was pointed right at me. No if it was "barely breaking the 180."

It would depend on the situation as to what happens to the person who yelled stop. He COULD get DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct under 10.6.2 if there really wasn't a safety situation, or at the very least... a procedural under 8.6.2...

If there was, then I would like to think that nothing would happen to the competitor yelling. The RO could still DQ the shooter for breaking the 90 degree median (10.5.2) if he did actually see it. If he didn't, then the RO should offer the competitor a reshoot under 8.6.4

If someone was pointing a gun at me while breaking the 180, and the RO hadn't yelled stop, I would. Then I would have a nice chat with the CRO and the RM about the situation.

Frank

[Gary Stevens]

This is something that many of us have discussed at length. The more answers you give, the more questions arise.

If you are not acting as a range official, actively running a shooter, what authority/responsibility do you have?

Do you have to have an RO certification or can you make safety calls with little or no experience? Is this making safety calls from the audience available to everyone?

If you yell at the individual and induce a shot that causes injury to someone are you going to accept the responsibility, since no shot had went off prior to you yelling at the shooter?

Are you operating under the umbrella of USPSA when you take it upon yourself to act as an RO from the audience?

The continuing mix up of what responsibilities the MD has and what the RM has once the first shot goes off. Nice letter from a shooter at the Area 8 match where he credited the MD with professionally handling a situaiton when it was in fact the RM. Rule 7.1.7 gives more insight into the different roles.

Does it just apply to a 180 break, or does it apply to finger in the trigger guard, or any of the safety violations?

What happens if you DQ someone from the audience vantage and someone else in the audience says "I had a clear view of it (a better vantage point) and it was not unsafe. What now?

Chew on these questions and then I'll give you my opinion, FWIW.

Gary

Edited December 24, 2008 by Gary Stevens

[Franklin D Wolverton]

Gary... that's why I said if the gun was pointed AT me then hell yeah... I'm yelling stop.

Other than that, I personally think that the "peanut gallery" should shut up and let the RO do his job. Matter of fact, I think I'm going to make that part of my match brief...

I was simply doing thru the scenario's as presented., and what COULD happen to both the yeller and the shooter.

For those that think I'm being a jerk... look at 7.3.2. "Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”,“Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no standing or authority as Range Officials for that match."

Frank

Edited December 24, 2008 by Franklin D Wolverton

[warpspeed]

This is something that many of us have discussed at length. The more answers you give, the more questions arise.

If you are not acting as a range official, actively running a shooter, what authority/responsibility do you have? My own personal safety

Do you have to have an RO certification or can you make safety calls with little or no experience? If the gun is pointed at me and I'm 20 yds behind the line, yes. Is this making safety calls from the audience available to everyone? All who have a loaded firearm in the hands of a competitor pointed at them

If you yell at the individual and induce a shot that causes injury to someone are you going to accept the responsibility, since no shot had went off prior to you yelling at the shooter? The gun is in there hand. Remember, guns don't kill, people kill.

Are you operating under the umbrella of USPSA when you take it upon yourself to act as an RO from the audience? I'm not acting as an RO, I'm acting as a spectator / competitor that has a loaded gun pointed at them when they should not.

The continuing mix up of what responsibilities the MD has and what the RM has once the first shot goes off. Nice letter from a shooter at the Area 8 match where he credited the MD with professionally handling a situaiton when it was in fact the RM. Rule 7.1.7 gives more insight into the different roles.

Does it just apply to a 180 break, or does it apply to finger in the trigger guard, or any of the safety violations? Just when the person with the loaded firearm points it up range.

What happens if you DQ someone from the audience vantage and someone else in the audience says "I had a clear view of it (a better vantage point) and it was not unsafe. What now? The shooter DQ's themselves. We have been over that before. I have nothing to do with it.

Chew on these questions and then I'll give you my opinion, FWIW.

Gary

Edited December 24, 2008 by warpspeed

[Franklin D Wolverton]

This is something that many of us have discussed at length. The more answers you give, the more questions arise.

If you are not acting as a range official, actively running a shooter, what authority/responsibility do you have? None whatsoever 7.3.2

Do you have to have an RO certification or can you make safety calls with little or no experience? Is this making safety calls from the audience available to everyone? Unless someone is pointing their gun RIGHT AT YOU... shut up

If you yell at the individual and induce a shot that causes injury to someone are you going to accept the responsibility, since no shot had went off prior to you yelling at the shooter? Tricky... could happen. Explain that one to the cops however... "that guy yelling caused me to pull the trigger." Your range better have insurance.

Are you operating under the umbrella of USPSA when you take it upon yourself to act as an RO from the audience? Nope... again see 7.3.2

The continuing mix up of what responsibilities the MD has and what the RM has once the first shot goes off. Nice letter from a shooter at the Area 8 match where he credited the MD with professionally handling a situaiton when it was in fact the RM. Rule 7.1.7 gives more insight into the different roles.

Does it just apply to a 180 break, or does it apply to finger in the trigger guard, or any of the safety violations? My personal opinion here... again, if it's not pointed at you, shut up

What happens if you DQ someone from the audience vantage and someone else in the audience says "I had a clear view of it (a better vantage point) and it was not unsafe. What now? It's neither of these persons call. It's still the RO's call. His word against mine is what arbitration is for.

Chew on these questions and then I'll give you my opinion, FWIW.

Gary

[JThompson]

IF the RO or CRO didn't see it it didn't happen. There is no other way to rule on this though I wish there were. We could go on for hours on one side or the other, but this is the RO and CRO job to call if they miss it it didn't happen, end of story.

If someone else yells stop I would offer the shooter a reshoot if I didn't see it and perhaps give the yeller a procedural, depending on what I was able to see.

It's a sticky wickett...

BTW Frank... you saved me a lot of typing with the two above... I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the matter.

JT

[Franklin D Wolverton]

I try...

[chuckbradley]

If somebody is pointing a gun at me then I will act accordingly to stop the threat, RO or not. If that means hollering hey dumb ass, or STOP then thats what i will do. Once the threat has passed then I have no standing and it reverts back to those with the official standing to make the call.

I had this happen once where I, my 2 boys and a girl friend of theirs all got swept. I chewed on the shooter and the RO. He wasnt DQ'd. The RO argued that he didnt have his finger in the trigger guard so it was OK. I dont think he was certified and is no longer an active shooter. I went back and explained to the shooter how close he was to killing a kid and explained how important it was for him to make sure his muzzle was pointed in a safe direction at all times. How close was he? about .018. Thats all it took for the sear to release the hammer.

[Nik Habicht]

For those who have stated that they would call "stop" even if they were not acting as an RO, would you do this at every match, not just local? Would you do it at a state, secitonals, area match, or perhaps the nationals?

Just asking....

Gary

Gary,

It would need to be egregious, I'd need to be certain, and the RO would have to not be reacting --- if all three of those conditions occur, you'd better believe I'd make that call at the Nationals. (The egregious thing --- if it was a mild 180 break, I think it would be too hard to be certain from the different vantage point that the peanut gallery provides; and with the increased severity of the break there'd be an increased likelihood of another being endangered.) I don't believe I abdicate my RO responsibilities (safety related) just because I'm not officiating at a particular match, and i actually believe that all persons on the range share in those "maintaining a safe range" duties --- though they are accompanied by responsibilities......

[Gary Stevens]

Nik how do you balance that with 7.3.2? I agree that there are circumstances, extremely limited, IMO where action is called for. An example would be an individual walking over a berm and onto a range while shooting is occuring or about to occur. In that it would be clear that the shooter did nothing wrong and would be entitled to a re-shoot. However, in the example that is being talked about, the shooter has been disqualified by a member of the audience, who has no authority to make such a call. What do you want me to do with Nik when he makes such a call? What am I to do with the shooter?

Frank you said it is still the RO's call. Since he/she didn't make a call, who's call is it?

Gary

[JThompson]

As I said Gary... if they didn't see it it didn't happen.

Oh and one other thing Frank I I discussed.... if I'm looking at a muzzle, I'm moving or on the ground and then yelling. I ain't yelling at some guy with a hot gun pointed at me and him have an "oh shit" moment and jerk one off trying to get the muzzle back under control. I've seen this happen on a private range where someone yelled WATCH OUT!!! and the guy let one go about 5 feet from my toes.

Edited December 24, 2008 by JThompson

[Gary Stevens]

No body is answering the "WTF do I do now?" quesiton.

Do I "overrule" the DQ from the audience and require a reshoot? Do I assess the spectator a procedural or a DQ themselves for unsportsman like conduct since they deliberately acted outside their authority and specifically against a written rule?

The spectator, while in thier mind acted in good faith, has opened a can of worms that I or some other real range official will now have to deal with.

What do I do now?

Gary

[JThompson]

No body is answering the "WTF do I do now?" quesiton.

Do I "overrule" the DQ from the audience and require a reshoot? Do I assess the spectator a procedural or a DQ themselves for unsportsman like conduct since they deliberately acted outside their authority and specifically against a written rule?

The spectator, while in thier mind acted in good faith, has opened a can of worms that I or some other real range official will now have to deal with.

What do I do now?

Gary

I think I pretty much covered that earlier in the thread Gary.

You can't call what you didn't see... period. Yes, you have them reshoot... as to the procedural or DQ, or nothing... that would depend on how much I saw as an RO.

You reshoot and move on unless there was a bang.

That's my opinion on the matter until an CRO/RM overrules me.

If we don't do it that way, do we have the crowd call finger on the trigger when moving? Sweeping? Were would it end? No we call what we see and that is all.

Edited December 24, 2008 by JThompson

[Alan Meek]

No body is answering the "WTF do I do now?" quesiton.

Do I "overrule" the DQ from the audience and require a reshoot? Do I assess the spectator a procedural or a DQ themselves for unsportsman like conduct since they deliberately acted outside their authority and specifically against a written rule?

The spectator, while in thier mind acted in good faith, has opened a can of worms that I or some other real range official will now have to deal with.

What do I do now?

Gary

If the RO saw the 180 break he issues the DQ's to the shooter. If not the shooter gets a reshoot. Hard to apply a penalty to the spectator as the RO was not in the position the spectator was and cannot determine if the spectator was reacting to being swept or acting in an unsportsman like behavior. If the individual who saw the 180 break still desires they can always file a 3rd party arbitration and through the due process a determination by the Arb committee would either issue a DQ or uphold the reshoot.

Alan

[JThompson]

Alan,

I assume you are talking about a "Third Party Appeal" 11.6.4 I'm not sure this could be used since the call was not made by the RO. Are you saying a third party can arb for a decision that was never made against the shooter... ergo the RO gave him a reshoot. You arb for a DQ of the shooter? Can that even be done?

I haven't been here before so please enlighten...

Thanks

JT

Edited December 24, 2008 by JThompson

[Alan Meek]

In this scenario, upon the spectator competitor yelling stop and the shooter stops, the RO will be making a call to either call the shooter for braking the 180 and DQ'ing said shooter or issuing the shooter a reshoot based on interference. Either of these call would involve the RM and assuming the RM has the same information as the RO would either grant the Reshoot or validate the DQ. At that point if the reshoot was issued the spectator competitor could file the 3rd party arb and likewise if the DQ was upheld the shooters could file an arb.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Alan Meek

[JThompson]

In this scenario, upon the spectator competitor yelling stop and the shooter stops, the RO will be making a call to either call the shooter for braking the 180 and DQ'ing said shooter or issuing the shooter a reshoot based on interference. Either of these call would involve the RM and assuming the RM has the same information as the RO would either grant the Reshoot or validate the DQ. At that point if the reshoot was issued the spectator competitor could file the 3rd party arb and likewise if the DQ was upheld the shooters could file an arb.

Really? That sounds pretty tenuous... They might be arbing two then... the one for the guy not getting a DQ and the one for him being DQ for UC. Has this ever happened... a third party arbing to have a shooter DQed?