Anyone using piston uppers in 3 gun?

[abn-rgr]

Just curious what you all think about using a piston conversion for 3 gun. Pros and Cons....

[davidwiz]

There is an article on piston-uppers in the latest Front Sight. My take on the article, they are a solution in search of a problem. Now, that conclusion would probably be different if the gun was for use in the sandbox.

[uscbigdawg]

I'm considering taking an extra carbine upper I have and doing a conversion to a piston to play with it. It's definitely a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. In A-Stan our WWPS guys were using HK416's and they were fun to shoot, especially since a couple of them are IPSC shooters and were playing with the buffers, carriers, etc.

TO ME, the mags are and always will be the weak link to the AR platform. Of course...Magpul has fixed that. Regular and basic maintenance keeps the rifle running.

Rich

[abn-rgr]

The reason I ask is I have the opportunity to use one as a possible sponsorship and want to see if it would hinder me. I currently use a JP complete upper, RRA lower with a JP trigger. I didnt know if it would hinder my shooting or not. Thanks for the replies.

[kurtm]

The greatest master of 3-gun, Erik Lund, uses one, why I heard he once hit 5 targets with one round at 600 yards, and can run a 2 second 50 yard dash whilst shooting all A zone hits with his rifle.....well, Erik DOES use one! KurtM

[abn-rgr]

The greatest master of 3-gun, Erik Lund, uses one, why I heard he once hit 5 targets with one round at 600 yards, and can run a 2 second 50 yard dash whilst shooting all A zone hits with his rifle.....well, Erik DOES use one! KurtM

Put down the bottle and walk away slowly....

[uscbigdawg]

A well known shooter was playing with a POF upper when I shot with him in '06. I'm sure he'll be on here soon.

Rich

[sideshowbob]

The only hinderance I can see is that some piston ARs are bulkier than others. I think POF pistons are a little bulkier than the LWRC or LMT pistons.

Otherwise I don't really see a hinderance, I don't really see an advantage either. If you are doing it for sponsorship, then you should go for it. What type of piston AR are you thinking of running?

[uscbigdawg]

Well....from a sponsorship standpoint, you are representing that product. If you don't believe it can win in 3-Gun, why use it? Not a criticism of you, but of folks in general. Another option would be to try it out in matches. If you like it...run it. If you don't, thankfully decline the sponsorship.

Rich

[abn-rgr]

Well....from a sponsorship standpoint, you are representing that product. If you don't believe it can win in 3-Gun, why use it? Not a criticism of you, but of folks in general. Another option would be to try it out in matches. If you like it...run it. If you don't, thankfully decline the sponsorship.

Rich

I agree totally. I dont want to shoot it for the sake of sponsorship if it is going to hinder me. I would rather not say the name of the upper until the details are worked out. Just getting some advice.

[kellyn]

I've run a POF upper from time to time. My first one was 1) dead nuts reliable (in about 10K rounds, I had one malfunction with a BetaMag) 2) was lucky in that I won a bunch of regional and state level matches with it 3) was odd in that the cheaper the bullet you shot, the more accurate it was - not a bad feature! It was a 3/4 MOA gun and has since gone on to a new junior shooter. My new one does not have nearly that many rounds through it yet but it is more accurate (1/2 MOA with match bullets - WAY more than good enough).

You certainly do not need a piston gun to compete in three gun. However, piston guns are certainly competitive. They do have a different recoil impulse than a direct gas gun. The POF does buck a little bit more than a JP with has an adjustable gas system. But I've also found them to have less of a recoil impulse than M4s and some other 16 in ARs. I have not found POFs to be quite as accurate as JPs but the difference is minute for three gun purposes. 1/2 MOA v. 1/3 MOA makes no difference.

POF-USA does a great deal to support the sport (especially juniors) and they make a good product. That in and of itself is reason to support them. I have too limited an experience with other piston guns to have an opinion.

[TMC]

The ones I've shot all had rail systems for handguard because the gas piston system won't fit under a nornal tublar handguard like a JP. They also bleed gas right were my left index finger typicaly goes when I shoot. So for an exter $500-1,000 I get a heavier rifle with a bulky front end that cooks my finger.

My .02, answer to a question nobody asked.

[jobob]

I'm not a well known 3-gunner, but I've been shooting a POF for a couple of years. I love it, but I love my other ARs too. It has some advantages and disadvantages.

Pros:

It's absofrickinglutely dead reliable. The only issue I ever had (FTF) was magazine related, and since I tossed that mag 1.5 years ago there has never been a hiccup. (Well, except for a stuck Wolf case, and that was, well, a stuck Wolf case.) I now shoot mostly Pmags, DPMS 45 rnd mags, Tripp 52 round, and Beta C, and all function flawlessly.

Very easy to clean, compared to direct impingment systems. And I hate cleaning guns, so this is important to me.

It needs cleaning less often than di guns. This is important in a long, grueling match like Ironman. You get back to your room about 9 at night, and all you want is to shower, stuff food in your gut, and hit the rack. Last thing you really want is to clean guns. I went through about 500 rounds at Ironman this year without cleaning, and function was perfect. And that was in some very dusty, gritty conditions. Oh, did I mention I HATE cleaning guns!

Is not fussy about ammo. It has functioned well with everything I've fed it.

Reasonably accurate. Not bench rest groups, certainly, but accurate enough for what we do. I usually get 1" - 1.5" 5 shot groups at 100 yards from the bench.

Durability. I'm sure it will shoot fine for many thousands of rounds. I doubt that I'll ever wear it out. It's a very rugged piece that I'll hand down to my kids, assuming that will be legal in the future.

Cons:

The gun is rather heavy, and slightly more bulky, compared to other similar sized ARs. That weight might slow you down slightly on the hoser stages, but helps to hold steady at long range. So that's a wash, I think. As I get older, though, I do appreciate lighter guns.

Recoil. Because of the all the extra metal moving back and forth, compared to a di gun, there is more perceived recoil. It's not bad or terribly distracting, but enough that it sent me on a quest to find the best compensator for it. I decided that no comp really fixed the recoil problem, but what helped the most was to remove the carbine stock, and install a full length rifle stock (A1 length). That seemed to soften it up quite a bit. That, with just a Miculek comp is my present combo.

Accuracy. Although I said that the accuracy is acceptable, it certainly isn't stellar. My most accurate AR is a plain Jane DPMS 16" carbine, with a free float handguard. The difference may be attributable to the fact that the POF has a chrome lined bore, and the DPMS doesn't. I also have a couple of Bushies (chrome lined). The 20" Bushy is nearly as accrate as the DPMS (I used it for the long range stage at Ironman, to 700 yards, with good effect). The 16" inch Bushy is probably my least accurate AR, though still accurate enough for my purposes as a 'tactical' gun.

Cost. My 18" upper was $1,400! I love it. It's a great gun. But I just can't bring myself to say that the extra cost was justified. If I was laying out that much cash now, I'd really be thinking hard about investing it in accuracy, like a JP. Although I would highly recommend the gun to anyone, for the reasons above, I would also have to say that it probably isn't worth the price, at least not for a match rifle. However, if someone was going to pay me to use it - HELL YES! Where can I sign up?

That said I'll continue to use the POF. Like I said, I love it! The fact that I'm pretty sure that I won't have a malfunction in the middle of a match is a pretty nice security blanket for me. I've seen lots of di ARs puke in matches. Especially those highly tuned match guns. Although I'm sure they're more accurate, those guns can be pretty finicky. OTOH, my little DPMS carbine has been 100% reliable so far, and it has all the accuracy I'll ever require in this game.

[PatD]

Great post jobob.

I am trying to put together a 3 gun upper right now and think I'll concentrate on a quality barrel as opposed to the piston upper thing. Like you said, in sandy dirty conditions I think the piston upper rules. For a match gun, I'll take the lighter weight and perhaps better accuracy of a DI gun.

[kurtm]

I forgot to mention KN3 (Kelly Neal), I saw him hit 6 targets with one round and is usually 1/4 second faster than Erik or Benny!

[sideshowbob]

Accuracy-wise, you should check out LMT and LWRC. They, as well as many shooters, claim MOA.

With regards to recoil. I have heard people putting H3 buffers (if running a carbine length buffer tube) and a Tubb flat buffer spring with great results.

[jobob]

Accuracy-wise, you should check out LMT and LWRC. They, as well as many shooters, claim MOA.

With regards to recoil. I have heard people putting H3 buffers (if running a carbine length buffer tube) and a Tubb flat buffer spring with great results.

That sounds like something worth trying. I used an Enadine hydraulic buffer, which helped some, but the gun still jumped more than my M4 clones.

[vsound]

I have a POF that I customized to be my 3-gunning rifle. I absolutely love it. As jobob said, it is absolutely reliable. Plus, I swapped out the barrel with a 16.5" carbon fiber/stainless ABS barrel, so it is sub-moa (3/4" is about the best I've done with it on the bench). I put a Dreadnaught F2 comp on mine, so it has minimal recoil. Maybe slightly more bounce than a similarly rigged out DI gun, but definitely WAY less recoil than my buddies rifles with standard issue flash hiders. After shooting several local matches and the MG Nationals all I had to do was wipe off the piston with a rag and run a swab down the barrel....done...clean. Nothing else was dirty.

[abn-rgr]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I will test one and see if I like it. I really like my JP and hate to give up the accuracy, but the reliability might be worth it.

[M'Lady]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I will test one and see if I like it. I really like my JP and hate to give up the accuracy, but the reliability might be worth it.

You should definitely test out the LWRC. I have been running one for the past 2 years. If you can the LMT may be worth checking out. It is really new though, and you may have a hard time finding one.

[kurtm]

I am neither for or against piston guns, but I will say this if you have good mags, good ammo, and good oil, any D.I. gun is as "dead nuts" reliable as any piston gun. If an AR isn't reliable, it is almost always a maintainance issue, next is a bad mag, next is gas rings, Now whether gas rings are on the bolt or on a piston out front really seems the same to me. I wouldn't spend the extra money for the piston system, I would buy a case of ammo for practice and a Quart of Mobile 1. If it were a sponsorship deal I would shoot one, but I doubt J.P. is going to make one KurtM

[vsound]

I am neither for or against piston guns, but I will say this if you have good mags, good ammo, and good oil, any D.I. gun is as "dead nuts" reliable as any piston gun. If an AR isn't reliable, it is almost always a maintainance issue, next is a bad mag, next is gas rings, Now whether gas rings are on the bolt or on a piston out front really seems the same to me. I wouldn't spend the extra money for the piston system, I would buy a case of ammo for practice and a Quart of Mobile 1. If it were a sponsorship deal I would shoot one, but I doubt J.P. is going to make one KurtM

FYI, there are no gas rings on a piston AR. That's part of what increases reliability while reducing maintenance.

Oh, and POF piston ARs do not require oil.

[kellyn]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I will test one and see if I like it. I really like my JP and hate to give up the accuracy, but the reliability might be worth it.

You certainly do not need to give up a JP to compete with a piston gun.

[kurtm]

FYI I have seen 3 different "piston uppers" that indeed have small gas rings out front to include the AR-18 type rifles, that must be what causes them to be just like D.I. rifles, only in a different place. That is what must make them AS reliable as a D.I. system. BTW almost all semi-auto systems "don't need lube", as I recall that is what was told to the troops in Viet-Nam. I know a POF "LIKES" it , but doesn't NEED it anymore than a regular AR likes it or needs it.

Is your J.P. unreliable??? I am on my 3rd J.P. barrel on my orriginal J.P. rifle and haven't had any malfunctions yet!

[vsound]

FYI I have seen 3 different "piston uppers" that indeed have small gas rings out front to include the AR-18 type rifles, that must be what causes them to be just like D.I. rifles, only in a different place. That is what must make them AS reliable as a D.I. system. BTW almost all semi-auto systems "don't need lube", as I recall that is what was told to the troops in Viet-Nam. I know a POF "LIKES" it , but doesn't NEED it anymore than a regular AR likes it or needs it.

Is your J.P. unreliable??? I am on my 3rd J.P. barrel on my orriginal J.P. rifle and haven't had any malfunctions yet!

Hmmm. Didn't know any of the pistons had gas rings. The POF, Adams Arms, and LWRC do not have rings, but I haven't looked that closely at some of the others.

I don't have a JP, but I have seen buddies JP's choke and have seen them run like Swiss clocks. Inevitably, almost any of them could choke at any given time. My preference is for the piston, but I certainly wouldn't pass up an opportunity to run a JP on sponsorship.