MacCearain Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 (edited) Hi all -- I'm relatively new to reloading.... I started with my 9mm loading with 124gr CMJ Montana Golds over 4.1gr of TiteGroup with an AOL of 1.160. This load has been really accurate in my Beretta 92FS with scrounged range brass. So then I ordered some 147gr. CMJ Montana Golds and loaded these over 3.2gr of TiteGroup with an AOL of 1.122. This load was also very nice. I don't have access to a chrono, but I like the "feel" of the 147s. Both of these loads allow me to 1-hole at 7yards off hand with 5 shots - slow fire..... So now my question.... I wanted to save some coin... So I bought a couple of thousand lead 147gr. flat nose.... I looked in the books and adjusted the recipe to the following: 2.5gr TiteGroup with AOL of 1.058. They feed fine, but even off a bag -- at 10 yards 5 shots gives me a group size of 5 inches.... and 1 of the 5 will keyhole through the target. I've only shot 50 of them through the gun. When I noticed the keyholing, I went back to the 124gr Montana Golds listed above and the accuracy was "back to normal". I'm not sure which direction to go with this.... Given my limited knowledge, what would be the best thing to "adjust" in order to optimize the load? Or do I just leave it alone, until I get a chrono? Thanks in advance for the thoughts.... Mac Edited October 4, 2008 by MacCearain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Could be a couple of things. One, that charge seems pretty light. Hodgdon lists a starting load of 3.2gr with a 147gr XTP (listed as 855fps). Lead bullets give lower pressures for the same charge (all other things being equal) so you may not be pushing the bullet fast enough/hard enough to stabilize it. Second thing to check is the bullet size. Most of the time you want a lead bullet that's .001 larger than the jacketed equivalent to get them to really grab the rifling, and to seal the gases better. So, you're probably want bullets that are .356 and even .357 will sometimes cure accuracy problems in some guns and it's not going to hurt anything if you're not already near max pressure. Lastly, check your case mouth bell and crimp. If the lead bullets are larger than the jacketed bullets, you might add a little extra bell to get the bullets started without shaving lead and have to back off the crimp a touch as well. Measure the bullet diameter, then the thickness of the brass at the mouth. Take the bullet diameter plus two times the case wall thickness and that's a good target for crimp. I'm sure other folks will have more ideas, but those are some things you can start to look at. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacCearain Posted October 4, 2008 Author Share Posted October 4, 2008 ummm... Did a search... this time for keyhole.... now I'm leaning toward the crimp... but I don't actually know anyting about loading... For reference the total diameter of the loads I've made are all .378 measured at the end of the brass... should I try easing off to the .380 DIA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 ummm... Did a search... this time for keyhole.... now I'm leaning toward the crimp... but I don't actually know anyting about loading... For reference the total diameter of the loads I've made are all .378 measured at the end of the brass... should I try easing off to the .380 DIA? That really depends on the exact bullet diameter and the brass. Not all brass is identical thickness...even from the same company. Take your calipers and just measure the very edge of the case mouth (if you go back too far it will be thicker). Double that, add the bullet diameter and you should be close. .380" probably won't be a problem as long as you have enough tension to keep the bullet from moving backwards (setback) when it feeds in the gun. Load one up,measure the overall length, push the nose of the bullet against something hard and measure to see if it's gotten shorter to check for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Hello: Check the diameter of the brass with a seated bullet about 1/8" from the end of the brass(bullet end). Then measure right at the end. The very end measurement should be 0.002 smaller than the 1/8" measurement. Also load to 1.140 OAL with the 147's and try 3.0 grains of Tite Group. Let us know how this works out. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacCearain Posted October 4, 2008 Author Share Posted October 4, 2008 Thanks Aircooled and G-Man.... I'll do those things and repost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 If you're using the generic 147 grain LFPs, my 92 Brigadier runs them with no problem at 1.14" OAL. Your ammo is way shorter; this may be the problem, or at least contributing to it. The Beretta's chamber is pretty generously sized, so opening the crimp up to .380" shouldn't present a problem (I have my die set for .378"). Also, in my Beretta I don't like using cast bullets smaller than .357". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I am leaning towards what revchuck is onto. My experience with the Beretta 92 is limited but I have done lots of work with the 9mm 147gr, mainly JHP but more recently with 147gr LRN. Load length has to be no less than 1.135" prefferable at bang on 1.150". Titegroup or N320 with a lead bullet will need to be no more than 3.5gr, I have found with TG about 3.2gr will make minor easily in the Beretta. 3.5gr may be a bit hot but depending on condition of barrel may work better. You can get away with a little more with JHP over the Lead. Use the minimum amount of crimp you possibly can to ensure no setback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacCearain Posted October 12, 2008 Author Share Posted October 12, 2008 Thanks everyone for the replies... Here is what I've done so far.... The next attempt was : OAL of 1.110 over 3.0gr TiteGroup -- Increased the Bell and adjusted the Crimp slightly... ending total Diameter was .379 I understand the concept of measure the wall thickness of the brass ect..., but because I have mixed brass -- I've continued to simply test the crimp with the push against the bench method... This load keyholed 20%. Then I tried OAL: 1.120 over 3.3gr TiteGroup -- left the crimp at .379 -- This keyholed 100% of the time. Then I switched powders... I loaded up 3 sets with Unique, because I had it on the shelf... The Unique was less smoky and provided a workable solution.... I kept the oal at 1.120 and the crimp right at .378 - .379... Set Number one was 4.0gr of Unique -- This keyholed 40% of the time... Set Number two was 3.8gr of Unique -- This didn't totally keyhole any rounds, but ~3 out of 50 didn't print totally round holes. Set Number three was 3.6gr of Unique -- This seemed to elminate the keyholing and bring the accuracy back.... I'm not convinced that the load is AS accurate in the gun as the Montana Golds over TiteGroup, but I'm looking forward to saving some coin with them... I shot up all the failed test cases (~120 rounds), and then came back to shoot some more of the 3.6gr Unique rounds. They still looked good. Thanks again everyone for the assistance.... When I talked the guy who cast the bullets, he mentioned that some people do have problems with tumbling 147gr Lead bullets in 9mm -- to the point that he has had customers that can't shoot them in their guns... His solution was to buy some 124gr bullets - or even buy some that were cast for the .357... Thanks all -- I appreciate the assistance... Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Mac - Things are looking up! A while back, I ordered some 147 grain Precisions sized .358" to try them out in my round guns. They shot fine, but didn't speedload well due to the sharp truncated cone shape. To use them up, I worked up a load in the Beretta of 3.7 grains of Unique under those .358" bullets at 1.14" OAL and they shoot fine. Velocity is ~930 fps. Unfortunately, due to the bullet shape, they only work in the Beretta, they're too long for my other 9x19s...lesson learned for me. I had also tried some Clays with 147 grain LFPs in the Beretta and had some tumbling. You might want to ask your supplier if he can run some of those 147s at .357" or .358" and try them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Sell the Beretta and get a Glock On a more serious note Berettas seem to have more of an issue with heavy bullets than most guns. Maybe the barrel twist is wrong. I would try loading your 147s as long as possible. I shoot 160 gr bullets in my Glocks and Kimber without any problems. I use either Titegroup or Solo 1000. I could not get Clays to work with a 147 or 160 in any of my guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingleStacker45 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Just a word from an old guy. Crimp does not prevent setback. Bullet tension is controlled by the sizing die. Actually too much crimp can cause bullet setback. All plated and lead bullets work best with minimal crimp. It sounds like your crimp dimensions are fine but you can open it up a bit more if you like. Crimp will be greatly affected by differing case lentgh. If you want to find the potential accuracy of a given load I have found it best to sort cases by headstamp thus your crimp should all be close to the same. Also weigh each powder charge for 10 rounds and see what those 10 will do as far as grouping or accuracy. It helps to eliminate all the variables you can. Then you can go back to mixed brass once you settle on a load. Watch out for .380 brass getting mixed in though. Mule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Sell the Beretta and get a Glock Ewwwww... On a more serious note Berettas seem to have more of an issue with heavy bullets than most guns. Maybe the barrel twist is wrong. I would try loading your 147s as long as possible. I shoot 160 gr bullets in my Glocks and Kimber without any problems. I use either Titegroup or Solo 1000. I could not get Clays to work with a 147 or 160 in any of my guns. It's not a problem with the twist - it's got a faster twist than your Kimber. It's probably a problem with length, bullet diameter and powder choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 My .308 with a 1/12 twist really likes heavier bullets and the Schuemann 1/24 twist in the .45 really likes 230 gr bullets. So I think it is lighter bullet faster twist, heavier bullet slower twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 My .308 with a 1/12 twist really likes heavier bullets and the Schuemann 1/24 twist in the .45 really likes 230 gr bullets. So I think it is lighter bullet faster twist, heavier bullet slower twist. Leroy - It's the other way around - heavy bullets need a faster twist. I doubt you'd be able to stabilize 220s out of your .308, but they'd work out of a 1/10" gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 You might want to switch to W-231 with the 147 gr lead bullets. The 14th Ed WW Reloading Manual lists the folowing data for the 147 gr. cast lead flat point in 9mm Luger: 3.3 gr. W-231 = 865 fps = 29000psi 3.5 gr. W-231 = 905 fps = 32100 psi I can vouchfor the accuracy of the above loads in several 9mm pistols. Hi all -- I'm relatively new to reloading.... I started with my 9mm loading with 124gr CMJ Montana Golds over 4.1gr of TiteGroup with an AOL of 1.160. This load has been really accurate in my Beretta 92FS with scrounged range brass. So then I ordered some 147gr. CMJ Montana Golds and loaded these over 3.2gr of TiteGroup with an AOL of 1.122. This load was also very nice. I don't have access to a chrono, but I like the "feel" of the 147s. Both of these loads allow me to 1-hole at 7yards off hand with 5 shots - slow fire..... So now my question....I wanted to save some coin... So I bought a couple of thousand lead 147gr. flat nose.... I looked in the books and adjusted the recipe to the following: 2.5gr TiteGroup with AOL of 1.058. They feed fine, but even off a bag -- at 10 yards 5 shots gives me a group size of 5 inches.... and 1 of the 5 will keyhole through the target. I've only shot 50 of them through the gun. When I noticed the keyholing, I went back to the 124gr Montana Golds listed above and the accuracy was "back to normal". I'm not sure which direction to go with this.... Given my limited knowledge, what would be the best thing to "adjust" in order to optimize the load? Or do I just leave it alone, until I get a chrono? Thanks in advance for the thoughts.... Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 My .308 with a 1/12 twist really likes heavier bullets and the Schuemann 1/24 twist in the .45 really likes 230 gr bullets. So I think it is lighter bullet faster twist, heavier bullet slower twist. Leroy - It's the other way around - heavy bullets need a faster twist. I doubt you'd be able to stabilize 220s out of your .308, but they'd work out of a 1/10" gun. Actually you're both wrong. It's longer bullets that need a faster twist. Usually, longer bullets are heavier, too, but not always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 My .308 with a 1/12 twist really likes heavier bullets and the Schuemann 1/24 twist in the .45 really likes 230 gr bullets. So I think it is lighter bullet faster twist, heavier bullet slower twist. Leroy - It's the other way around - heavy bullets need a faster twist. I doubt you'd be able to stabilize 220s out of your .308, but they'd work out of a 1/10" gun. Actually you're both wrong. It's longer bullets that need a faster twist. Usually, longer bullets are heavier, too, but not always. I hate smart alecks - especially when they're right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 My .308 with a 1/12 twist really likes heavier bullets and the Schuemann 1/24 twist in the .45 really likes 230 gr bullets. So I think it is lighter bullet faster twist, heavier bullet slower twist. Leroy - It's the other way around - heavy bullets need a faster twist. I doubt you'd be able to stabilize 220s out of your .308, but they'd work out of a 1/10" gun. With these 2 guns I think it is a case where theorem has to take a back seat to reality. The 300 Apex shoots a 220gr Nosler that I can cover 3 shots with a dime but I think it has gain twist rifling. The barrel was made by J. Hall Sharon from Kalispell and has a Monte Kennedy stock with a Winchester Model 70 action. At the time J. Hall was rifling a bunch of barrels for Thompson Contenders and I think everything was done with a broach, 1965 was a long time ago and the memory is fading. The Schuemann barrel shoots much tighter groups with 230gr Zero HP's than it did with 200gr Montana Gold FP. It will also do tighter groups with 230gr Precision Delta's than a Springfield Limited, Para Ordance P14-45 and the XD45 Service and Tactical. I've got a Marlin 444 that likes the 265gr bullets better than 240gr but it has a microgroove barrel designer for jacketed bullets has a slower twist barrel. The Marlin 45 Camp carbine also likes heavier bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 OK, here it is, information brought down from the mountain, concerning your problem; Everything mentioned is good, but only one thing will solve your problem: changing powders. I went through this fifteen years ago, when I found that my tack-driving 9-pin gun wouldn't keep lead bullets on a USPSA target at 25 yards. I tried it all; crimp, diameter, alloy hardness, weight, crimp and tried them all in two dozen guns from different makers. I finally gave up on Bullseye, and started trying other powders. What I found was that the guns that keyholed (not all did with lead bullets & B-eye) stopped misbehaving when I got up to about WW-231 in burn rate. So get a pound of pistol or shotgun powder in that burn rate or a bit slower and try it. I'll bet your problems will be solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Yep, Bear Creek 147's keyhole out of my G17 with a load of 3.2 of Titegroup. But when I loaded them with 3.8 grains of Unique there was no key holing and much better accuracy as you might imagine. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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