38supPat Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 And considerably faster, if you have to look to make sure the shot is on paper, you're losing time. What if you are looking at the paper when the shoot goes through?? I know BEFORE the bullet even gets to the paper...from reading the sights. What the heck ya waiting on holes for??? Lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 And considerably faster, if you have to look to make sure the shot is on paper, you're losing time. What if you are looking at the paper when the shoot goes through?? This comes froms a target focus which is fine on some strings...it's when you are unfocused that you run into trouble. However, next time at the range see where you can place your attention. Can you be aware of the sights while keeping a target focus? It's easier with a dot so try it with irons. In many ways it doesn't matter exactly how you get your hits...as long as you can consistantly GET YOUR HITS...but being aware of the sights is a nice way to stay out of trouble and for the most part you have enough time to see them. Most of the time lost on stages, even hoser stages come from somewhere other than quick splits on a target...so you might as well get as many points as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjbush12 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 And considerably faster, if you have to look to make sure the shot is on paper, you're losing time. What if you are looking at the paper when the shoot goes through?? This comes froms a target focus which is fine on some strings...it's when you are unfocused that you run into trouble. However, next time at the range see where you can place your attention. Can you be aware of the sights while keeping a target focus? It's easier with a dot so try it with irons. In many ways it doesn't matter exactly how you get your hits...as long as you can consistantly GET YOUR HITS...but being aware of the sights is a nice way to stay out of trouble and for the most part you have enough time to see them. Most of the time lost on stages, even hoser stages come from somewhere other than quick splits on a target...so you might as well get as many points as you can. Bingo, my point was that you need to pay attention to somthing but that may not alway be the sights. Ive shot some good runs on occasion and afterwards I have always remembered a really strong focus. Somtimes this focus has been on some really odd things, like brass coming out the gun or the serations on the back of the gun ect..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 See what you need to see to make the shot. The sights aren't necessarily required - although it is no slower to use them then not to. I noticed (or at least I think I noticed) on steel matches that I was sometimes shooting an index and sometimes it turned out great, but I think I might have been lucky when it did, as other times I crashed and burned on the stage. I asked a top GM about whether he real good at shooting and index or if he was real fast at seeing his sights. He said when he is shooting his best he is seeing his sights every time. Since then I have endeavored to see my sights on EVERY target regardless of ease. I figure it’s really not much if any slower for me and it’s certainly faster than making up a miss. I also figure by lining up each and every shot it will become more subconscious, get faster, will help perfect my index to a point where if I do lapse in my vision I should still have a hit. Any flaw in the reasoning of this absolutist approach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Any flaw in the reasoning of this absolutist approach? The only flaw is if you aren't seeing fast enough. The goal of USPSA shooting is to break each shot at the earliest possible instant that it will hit the A zone. So if your gun is pointed at the target, but you don't realize it because you don't visually acquire an acceptable sight picture fast enough, you are coming up short. See what you need to see, on each and every shot. Most of the time there is little target shooting even with a target focus. The danger comes when you aren't focused on either the sights or the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Certainly work to improve your index (at various and increasing distances). When the index is on, then the sights are right there for you. No need to wait on them and no need to muscle the gun around to line them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 The only flaw is if you aren't seeing fast enough. The goal of USPSA shooting is to break each shot at the earliest possible instant that it will hit the A zone. So if your gun is pointed at the target, but you don't realize it because you don't visually acquire an acceptable sight picture fast enough, you are coming up short. See what you need to see, on each and every shot. Thanks Jake and Flex. For now I’m working real hard on seeing fast enough. Shooting before I see has been costly too frequently for me to trust it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Thanks Jake and Flex. For now I’m working real hard on seeing fast enough. The vision is always moving. The vision is always moving. The vision is always moving. The vision is always moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 The reason most shooters will want to see the sights on an easy target is to slow down. It can become too easy to get your eyes moving ahead of the gun instead of on what you are actually shooting at the moment. Seeing the sight gives the pause needed to ensure a hit. How many here have 'missed' an easy target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I like the sights on a close target because they are the tools that give me the absolute best feedback. I can probably get "enough" feedback without them in many cases, but it doesn't cost me anything to get "more". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 (edited) And considerably faster, if you have to look to make sure the shot is on paper, you're losing time. What if you are looking at the paper when the shoot goes through?? This comes froms a target focus which is fine on some strings...it's when you are unfocused that you run into trouble. However, next time at the range see where you can place your attention. Can you be aware of the sights while keeping a target focus? It's easier with a dot so try it with irons. In many ways it doesn't matter exactly how you get your hits...as long as you can consistantly GET YOUR HITS...but being aware of the sights is a nice way to stay out of trouble and for the most part you have enough time to see them. Most of the time lost on stages, even hoser stages come from somewhere other than quick splits on a target...so you might as well get as many points as you can. For me I have found that I can have a target focus but I am still aware where the sights are. Some harder targets require more awareness of the sights while easier targets require less awareness of the sights. I still have to see the sights, the difficulty of the shot determines how clear they will be. BK Edited September 24, 2008 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 And considerably faster, if you have to look to make sure the shot is on paper, you're losing time. What if you are looking at the paper when the shoot goes through?? This comes froms a target focus which is fine on some strings...it's when you are unfocused that you run into trouble. However, next time at the range see where you can place your attention. Can you be aware of the sights while keeping a target focus? It's easier with a dot so try it with irons. In many ways it doesn't matter exactly how you get your hits...as long as you can consistantly GET YOUR HITS...but being aware of the sights is a nice way to stay out of trouble and for the most part you have enough time to see them. Most of the time lost on stages, even hoser stages come from somewhere other than quick splits on a target...so you might as well get as many points as you can. For me I have found that I can have a target focus but I am still aware where the sights are. Some harder targets require more awareness of the sights while easier targets require less awareness of the sights. I still have to see the sights, the difficulty of the shot determines how clear they will be. BK Bingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Even when doing, say, a sub-one second draw at three yards, it's still quite possible to pick up the sights and use them to guide the gun onto the correct spot on the target. So for me the question would not be, "When did you stop using the sights on close targets?" It would be, "When did you realize that, even at close range and max speed, you CAN use the sights - and that there are major advantages to doing so?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Back when I thought that not seeing the sights was quicker than tracking them I just didn't understand that seeing doesn't have to have a beginning and an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 seeing doesn't have to have a beginning and an end. Nice. Very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangGreg66 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 when did you notice you ..., stopped using sights at whole targets under 10 yds?When I started having misses on those targets. This was the moment of truth for me a couple matches ago. I noticed I wasn't seeing the sights all the time at targets at about 10 yards, under 10 I had been just indexing and making AA hits, when the range got out there a little more toward 10 yards I noticed AC hits and realized I wasn't tracking the sights on the second shot, I was just settling back down and yanking the trigger... now my focus is on seeing the sights every shot. I went from stock glock adjustable sights to dawson adjustable sights with the FO front recently and I'm hopeing it'll help. Thread drift: I've also got the right hand, left eye dominant thing goin for me, tried the tape over the left eye thing and when I was shooting it worked, but I noticed while I was talking topeople at the range I was lifting my head to see them with my good eye, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Targets at 10 yards?????? What targets??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Back when I thought that not seeing the sights was quicker than tracking them I just didn't understand that seeing doesn't have to have a beginning and an end. Another great Sam-ism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tattoo Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I find myself making some shots now so much faster then before, that I find myself not seeing the sights. But, in reality I think that I may have gotten to a point ( sometimes ) when I am making the shot unconsciously. My mind obvously saw the sights, but my body has actually driven the gun to the next target/shot. The shot made was a dead nuts center A/zero down hit. But, my conscious mind never noticed it. Kinda weird/cool. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Easy enough to ckeck. Just see if that is what is happening next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tattoo Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Easy enough to ckeck. Just see if that is what is happening next time. Flex, I know what you are saying. "Seeing" is the key and its hard to explain the feeling, but i feel its what Brain talks about in his book. I try to not "try" to make it happen, but after I shoot a stage and it does happen I "know" that it did. Its very cool to have it happen and I hope it just happens more often in the future. I just try to trust what i'm "seeing" and go w/ it. Very neat feeling. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 3YDS to 50YDS, all I know that since switching to open, if the dot ain't there, neither is the shot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Easy enough to ckeck. Just see if that is what is happening next time. Flex, I know what you are saying. "Seeing" is the key and its hard to explain the feeling, but i feel its what Brain talks about in his book. I try to not "try" to make it happen, but after I shoot a stage and it does happen I "know" that it did. Its very cool to have it happen and I hope it just happens more often in the future. I just try to trust what i'm "seeing" and go w/ it. Very neat feeling. T I know what you mean. I probably confused things with my comment. I wasn't meaning to suggest to change anything, just to make a note to observe that next time out...while it's going on. It can be interesting to notice various things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 For a long time I just didn't think that I could afford to sacrifice the speed on close shots. Because, it takes extra time to see the sights.....right? Then there is the old mantra "the hand is quicker than the eye". The hand starts moving, the hand moves, the hand stops moving. But the eye, as long as it is open, is always seeing something. So, in relation to the hand or the gun, the seeing has no begining and no end. If I'm not seeing the front sight, it isn't because my hands are so damned fast. (Oh, that they were ) Pssst! It's just because I ain't looking in the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Anytime you don't think you see, or don't think you need to see, in order to accomplish your shooting goal then you've simply mixed up what has changed. What has NOT changed is the need to see. What HAS changed is what you need to see. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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