2003 FGN rules talk

[Bucky]

Bucky, Dave on the first page was one of the two that was moved to open and said that was not the reason. Might want to check your source

Hmm, the two people that got bumped to Open were Eric and Al. No Dave listed. Please check this link A8 FGC Open Division

Are we talking about the same match?

[BDH]

3. The 10 round rule was NOT stressed in the shooter's meeting, (sorry BDH, it wasn't mentioned) and a very well known super squadder told me he loaded his first mag to 11 "all last year."

SA,

Well I obviously was not in the shooters meeting because I was making sure my stage was ready to run. All I know is that we were told that this would once again be clarified. Either it was overlooked or maybe you just missed it (?).

In any case, it is unfortunate that a few people did not realize this and got bumped into Open. However, I don't know how else to handle this unless the CRO's add it to the stage walkthru or something like that just to remind people. What torques me off is someone earlier making a comment about 'range nazis'. As I said before, the rules are the rules (like them or not), and the staff's job is to make sure that everyone safely competes on a level playing field and follows the rules.

For those of you that may think I am defending 'myself' on this.... I did not have anyone violate the 10 round rule on my stage (at least that I noticed). However, what I did have was several people 'bend' the 180 pretty far (I know, 90 VP). None of them were gross violations, but they easily could have been called. Instead, I let them finish the stage, scored them, and took them downrange and had a little coaching session with them. For the most part, those people appreciated me letting them know just how close to an unsafe gun handling call they came, and appreciated me just warning them. The only reason I am highlighting this, is that I truly believe that all the staff tried their hardest to keep people in the match. Unfortunately, if a rule was clearly violated, it had to be enforced....

[Chuck D]

What does this issue say about our sport.....

Someone loads 11 rounds in a mag, inserts it in the gun THEN racks the slide. Now the shooter has 10 in the gun and one in the chamber.

Someone PLEASE tell me where the advantage comes from !

I've done this hundreds of times in Sectional and Area Championships since the inception of L10 and NO ONE has called me on it.

This is why USPSA has a difficult time getting and keeping members. What ever happened to the "friendly reminder" , you know...the "don't do that again" speech the newbies get at their local club?

Things like this are the single most important reason why I'll never attend a U.S. Nationals.

Amidon and USPSA should be extremely PROUD of themselves.

[BDH]

Things like this are the single most important reason why I'll never attend a U.S. Nationals. 

Amidon and USPSA should be extremely PROUD of themselves.

Actually, John A. and USPSA should be extremely proud of themselves. At a match this size, there will always be little issues that creep up, and calls made that are unpopular (like the Bravo Mike call I made on our President ), but overall, the comments regarding the FGN have been very positive. I don't want to put words in Michaels mouth, but if I remember correctly his comments were that this was one of the best produced and best run matches that he has ever attended. That is pretty high praise from someone that has shot across the World.

I can only hope that you will keep an open mind and find out for yourself some day.

[Custom Glock Racing]

Geting bumped to open for loading a mag with 11 rounds and racking the slide has got to be the bigest load of bull**** I have ever heard. This level of idiocy would not even be an issue at an IDPA match, and they love to screw the shooters.

There is no advantage, the rules do not address this issue and so much for benifit of the doubt to he shooter.

I have never heard of that happening or even being addressed. I do the same thing when I shoot Pro and it never ben mentioned to me at any of the State, Section, Area or Nationals I have shot in Pro.

No wonder this sport is dieing.

[Chuck D]

How the hell does calling a Bravo/Mike on M.V.'s target even come close to comparing the shafting given the competitor whom loaded 11 then racked the slide?

USPSA need not toss the guy out of his division for what could have been an honest mistake.

It matters not what M.V. says about the FGN's .... I'm sure it was a great match...with one flaw...

[old shooter]

So when does the 10+1 rule actually start. At LAMR or at the Buzzer.

Mike

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Liota asked me to jump in, however this matter is outside my "jurisdiction", because it's a USPSA rule, not an IPSC rule.

Sorry I can't be of assistance this time.

[BigDave]

I had something to say here, but it likely won't do any good .

Well, I will say this...the inconsistency in the application of the rules is interesting.

[BDH]

How the hell does calling a Bravo/Mike on M.V.'s target even come close to comparing the shafting given the competitor whom loaded 11 then racked the slide? 

I was only trying to make the point that in ANY major match, there will always be calls that get questioned. Some are questioning the 10 rounds in a mag 'rule', and Michael questioned my call on his target. Both are covered clearly in the rulebook. Ten rounds in a mag max (app E), and the competitor may appeal up to the RM (9.6.5 & 9.6.6). In either case, someone was not happy, but overall the vast majority of the competitors appear to be very happy with this match. Simple as that... nothing more, nothing less.....

And at this point the only suggestion I can make is for anyone who is unhappy with the existing rules, to forward their comments to the rules committee.

[Chuck D]

It's clear what the rules are but I feel in this case a "warning" may have been in order instead of ruining shooters match by moving him to Open division.

Your comparing apples to oranges here. USPSA DID NOT have to take this approach. The competitor could have been warned and if he did it again, THEN move him/her up.

Taking the "complaint" to the rules committee won't undo the p.r. damage here.

Fact is , we praise those willing to partake in a Nationals as good members, then we screw them over and to add insult to injury...use a petty interp. of the rules to do it.

I'd bet if you polled a vast numer of Prod. and L10 shooters...I'd bet half of them do what the competitor did.

It'll be interesting to see if an r.o. would apply the same justice to a Master or GM...especially a well known one. This coming from myself, a Limited Master.

Paint it anyway you want...the call was weak.

Once again, back to the original question...WHERE WAS THE ADVANTAGE ?

[Flexmoney]

Chuck,

There is no advantage. It IS a silly rule. But, it is the current rule...no matter how flawed.

The shooter in my squad that got bump was a Grand Master. I think that Swede20 is too (in Limited).

This rule is clearly a problem. It is counter-intuitive. It serves noone.

I am nearly positive that Voight is looking to change it. Something along the lines of "...ten rounds in the mag, except on LAMR". (gotta word it somehow, right?)

Let's not blame the RO's. They have to follow the book...espeically at the Nationals. This wasn't a judgement call on their part. Kinda like driving into one of those states where the speed limit on the interstate is still 55mph. It's simple black and white. Let's quit complaining and see if we can get it changed. (nicely)

Try here:

Michael Voigt

USPSA President

909 548-3355 office

909 266-8005 fax

President@uspsa.org

[Shooter Grrl]

I've heard from RO's and other competitors at the FGN that this issue was talked about BEFORE the match and even during the match.

I made a point on the Ipsc List - of course it's easier to load 11 at LAMR, but jeez, it's easier to use 170mm mags all the time - but you don't, cause it's the rule!

I'm kinda glad the match officials enforced it!

[Loves2Shoot]

Maybe I am simple minded, but can't you have 15 rounds in the mag before you start the COF? I mean what is to prevent you from stripping out 5 rounds when you step up to the line? Should that bump you into open too? So he had 11 when he stepped up to the line, big deal. He only had 10 in the mag when the COF started, ie the buzzer going off, and THAT is the rule. Someone blew it here. Petty, petty, petty. There is no difference if he pulled the mag out and put one more round in it after stoking it up, or making the mag comply with the 10 round requirement by stripping of 1 round BEFORE the course of fire started.

What is the first command when you step to the line? LAMR, and you penalize the dude for making ready his mag? Lame, lame, lame.

Are you going to bump someone into open if when they are loading their mags the accidentally lose count and load 11 and then empty it and start over again? Legalistically that is the same as what you did by stating at NO time can anymore than 10 rounds be in the mag. Where is the common sense here?

[BigDave]

Yeah, M. Voigt lost 15 pts, Dave got knocked out of his class.

I think we can all agree that this issue does not stem from our hard working and often underapprciated CRO's and RO's.

I think that the problem stems from a poorly written, and ever more poorly interpreted rule. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, Amidon's logic (I re-read his article in FS on this issue) is absurd. If you want to get to the nuts and bolts of our "rulebook", it covers two areas; safety and equipment. Yes, it does have other text regarding range managment and equipment, but neither of those is the issue here.

If you want to take it to a safety issue, if a competitor used an 11rd mag to LAMR, he would handle the gun 1-2 less times than someone who uses a 10 rd, racks the slide, ejects the mag and reseats a 10 rounder.

If you go the equipment line, I still have not heard how someone who inserts an 11 rd mag at the LAMR command, racks the slide and then finds his/her pistol in compliance with the rules (10 rounds max in the mag) before the buzzer, how that is an competitive advantage. If the competitor started the COF with more than 11 rds in the gun, that is a competitive advantage. Using an 11 rd mag to make the gun into the 10+1 condition isn't.

Again, it the absence of a clearly written rule, the benefit goes to the shooter. I know that isn't in the rule book, but it should be (my opinion). We hear time and time again that we're not going to be beaten over the head with the rulebook, and look at what happens.

You know, I wonder if the outcome would be the same if someone on the Super Squad did this. I'd like to think yes, and yes without question. But...

[xcount]

I am nearly positive that Voight is looking to change it.  Something along the lines of "...ten rounds in the mag, except on LAMR".  (gotta word it somehow, right?)

On the IPSC list Area 7 director Rob Boudrie has posted that he has requested of Mike Voigt that this rule be changed. Area 1 director Bruce Gary has concurred.

Too bad someone always has to take the hit to expose and make an issue of obviously flawed rules and interpretations, rare though they may be.

As for not allowing an arbitration, bad idea. Sometimes protests have absolutely no merit at all and the shooter would be better off spending the $100 in a local gin mill crying in his beer. However, I don't see this case as unwinable.

I would ask the arbitration committee to consider this question....... What is the purpose of the several restrictions placed on equipment modifications in Production Division?

For examples: Maximum weight - plus 2 ounces; Sights - square notch & post only; Single Action pistols not allowed first shot must be double action; Grip sock or skateboard tape allowed but no modifications to grips; External modifications other than sights not allowed; Heavy barrels or barrel sleeves not allowed; 10 rounds maximum in magazine.

If the arbitration committee (or anyone, for that matter) can say these restrictions do not exist to preclude one competitor from having an equipment advantage over another competitor, then the case is lost.

But if the arbitration comittee (or anyone, for that matter) admits the restrictions do exist to preclude equipment advantage then I submit no equipment advantage is gained unless one or more of these restrictions is violated WHILE THE COMPETITOR IS SHOOTING.

And if a violation of the restriction is obviated prior to the competitor actually shooting, I submit that the competitor is still in complience with the spirit and intent of the division regulations.

To penalize him for not doing something (gaining an unfair equipment advantage) he is not supposed to do is unjust.

[muser]

The rule book is pretty clear in stating that the COF begins with the LAMR command (8.3.1). The problem is that 8.3.4 also states that the start signal begins the COF. "Begin" and "start" mean the same thing to me.

So which is it guys, 8.3.1 or 8.3.4??????

The answer to this question would help in solving the problem presented in this thread.

The pending new rules address this problem and change the wording in 8.3.4 making the LAMR command the only start to a COF, but with the rules as written today, I think anyone arbitrating a call to be bumped to Open Division for having 11 rounds in the mag at the LAMR command would have a strong case for a reversal, IMHO.

[j1b]

Shouldn't there be a concrete rule that is clear to the shooters? I understand the loading of 11 to prevent the exchange of magazines - but net net it really doesn't matter. Its a pre-shot routine that anyone could get used to.

I believe the "only 10 rds" rule is ok - we as shooters should simply adjust. Should there be an adjustment period w/ warnings? Absolutely! But the rule exists to insure the honest majority are not taken advantage of by the dishonest minority.

I am glad about this whole string - I've learned something that I can apply and to be honest - it doesn't bother me a bit. I'm totally ok with only loading 10 and doing the mag exchange. Any other division and you would do the mag exchange to increase the round count in your gun - so this step is truly not that big of a deal.

I feel bad for Dave - because I feel like he got screwed over a trivial deal, but the rule is a rule and I believe we as competitors are obligated to follow it. If the rule changes - GREAT - but if it doesn't I'm cool with that too.

Used to be that on Unload and show clear we used to pop rounds out and click. The RO's then started making us SHOW an unloaded firearm. To get busted on something that you KNOW is over an empty gun (assuming you DO KNOW it is empty) is stupid - but we can all understand why the rule exists and by virtue of that we all follow it.

Precedence has been set - and I believe that is a good thing. Dave - I feel extrememly bad for you - but your lesson taught us all a lesson and for that I Thank You.

Jack

[Chuck D]

Rules are rules...so I guess there should be NO flexibility in them...ESPECIALLY in the context of 11 rounds in a mag during the LAMR command.

I wonder how many of those out there whom respectfully subscribe to this theory wouldn't try to weasel their way out of a speeding ticket because they thought there was a good reason for going "just a little bit over the speed limit".

Yes it's a rule. Yes the R.O.'s have to enforce it but maybe, just maybe there was a little "wiggle room" here to correct the problem without creating further negative P.R. for USPSA?

I don't blame the r.o. I blame the system that fosters the belief that shafting a fellow competitor in the name of "the rules" is an honorable function.

USPSA could have taken the high road here, instead it chose to make an example out of someone...and people say IDPA is bad......

I thank Area 7 director (my area by the way) Rob Boudrie for contacting M.V. and asking for a rules change. We're lucky to have a director like him in these parts.

If your ever in the Eastern Lakes Section and I'm your R.O. don't worry...stoke 'em up with 11 rounds and drop the slide. Won't bother me a bit. Your gaining NO advantage and I won't bother breaking your ....... about it.

Special thanks to Loves2Shoot, Big Dave and XCount for your posts....

Don't be afraid to make too much sense guys...

[JFD]

I don't see the rule as being vague at all.

"10 rounds maximum loaded in magazine" seems very clear and there's no mention of a competitor having to gain an advantage before the rule kicks in. It's simply an equipment rule. When do other equipment rules apply? Only after LAMR? I figure when you step up to the line, your equipment should be good to go. That's much different than trying to apply it to some guy who loads 11 rounds by accident, then corrects it well before it's time to shoot.

If I admitted to the RO I purposely loaded 11 rounds, then I'd expect some type of penalty. I don't think using a Barney mag makes much of a time difference and this is an easy rule to conform to.

I really appreciate the generally well thought out and applied rules of USPSA. I'm not about to get bent out of shape over a 10 rounds max rule when I've seen what happens when the rules are open to interpretation at the whim of what some unknown person considers "fair".

BTW: I got a FTDR for this very thing from a USPSA disliking SO at a local IDPA match.

[Shooter Grrl]

Hi guys,

Liota asked me to jump in, however this matter is outside my "jurisdiction", because it's a USPSA rule, not an IPSC rule.

Sorry I can't be of assistance this time.

Acutally Vince, the rule and statement you made in your reply to Erik fits here purrfectly.

[Shooter Grrl]

So when does the 10+1 rule actually start. At LAMR or at the Buzzer.

Mike

Mike,

Load and make ready is the start of the course. The RO's can check your equipment AT ANY TIME however.

[Shooter Grrl]

This dead horse can be beat no more - I'm locking it!