revchuck Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Folks - I've read about a lot of shooters having problems with heavier bullets (147+ grains) tumbling in 9x19 guns at minor (850-900 fps) velocities. While I don't doubt that it's happening, I question the reasons given, such as "the rifling twist is too slow". I want to do some research into the causes and how to fix the problem. My personal experience is that I've never had a bullet tumble from a 9x19, but I need to add that all the ones I've owned have had 1-10" twist barrels. I've used up to 160 grain bullets with no problems. (The old 160 grain .38 Super RNL fits nicely loaded to 1.16" OAL.) It sticks in my mind that the 9x19 M&P is one of the culprits, given its 1-18 3/4" rate of twist. As a longtime user of S&W revolvers, which use the same rate of twist, I know that .38 caliber 158 grain RNLs are stable at 500 fps, thanks to not checking the balance beam scale closely enough. Ain't no way .002" makes that much difference. The old .38 Special Super Police load, a 200 grain RNL, had no problems with stability. So, which guns have been causing the problems? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 read a lot of posts about CZ's and 147gr rounds tumbling especially over TG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisStock Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 read a lot of posts about CZ's and 147gr rounds tumbling especially over TG. +1... from an ex-SP01 owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 read a lot of posts about CZ's and 147gr rounds tumbling especially over TG. +1... from an ex-SP01 owner. Lead, plated or jacketed? My CZ-75B loves 147 grain LFPs over 3.2 grains of Bullseye. I never tried it with Titegroup. If lead, what diameter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) read a lot of posts about CZ's and 147gr rounds tumbling especially over TG. +1... from an ex-SP01 owner. Lead, plated or jacketed? My CZ-75B loves 147 grain LFPs over 3.2 grains of Bullseye. I never tried it with Titegroup. If lead, what diameter? Give eerw and carlos pm's. They both shoot CZ's and I think they both have had this issue. Now that I think about it, I had keyholing problems with Reiner plated 147's over TG in my G34 a long time ago. Swore them off after that. 115's were ok, but the 147's just sucked (and I'm not ebracing that suck). Edited July 28, 2008 by SA Friday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisStock Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Rainier (.356) and Berry's(.356) in plated 147 GR, and Kead Cast Lead in 147 (.3560 - .3565)<----uniformity somewhat of an issue with the last ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 read a lot of posts about CZ's and 147gr rounds tumbling especially over TG. I think you are onto something with TG - although I have never had tumbling issues with 147s in any of my 75s, Glocks, or the new M&P. I have experienced tumbling with 40 & 45 loads under 1000 FPS. But, as you suggest, faster powders are part of the problem. Back when Phil was sponsored by now defunct West Coast Bullets, he landed Vihta Vouri sponsorship. Out of his STI, the 200 grn TMJ'd bullets tumbled with N320. Simply switching to N330 foxed the problem completely - all other variables remained the same. Tumbling is also more likely with TMJ'd bullets like the Speer TMJ & gold dot, the Berry's TMJ or the Ranier TMD'd bullets. D. PS - stay safe over there brother - we need you home in one piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 Rainier (.356) and Berry's(.356) in plated 147 GR, and Kead Cast Lead in 147 (.3560 - .3565)<----uniformity somewhat of an issue with the last ones. Chris - The 147 LFPs that shoot so well from my 75B are Kead's. Did you try any other powders, and if so, how did they work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 The only powder that I got tumbling with was Clays. TG and Solo 1000 work well. I do shoot a pretty heavy 9mm bullet - 160 gr. Next up is a 200 gr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Gun was a Walther P99 9mm 147 moly and lead truncated 147's and 150gr lead SWC's both keholed with TG, WST and probably clays when loaded to 128ish pf. The same loads in a Hipower and a 4.25" Nowlin 1911 barrel shot fine. When loaded over 1000fps the tumbling stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy_fuentes Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Chuck Dave R., that use to shoot with us, had trouble with a Glock 34 and Clays. It was very accurate when when not tumbling. I shot his loads in my Kimber 9 mm and they were phenomenally accurate and no tumbling. Buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I hear it with zero 147 and the M&P. Of course I have also heard it with the zero 147 and berettas as well. I was at first thinking it was a stablization issue, but the more I think aout it I am leaning towards bullet diameter vs rifling issue. Slight variation in each may be leading to this problem, thus the reason one guy has no problem and the next one does. The fast vs slow powder is interesting also. after reading this thread I am thinking that it will be someone much smarter than I, to figure this one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I tried 500 of the 147 & 150 grain lead bullets in my Browning Hi-Power over WW 231 at 850 fps and had no problem with tumbling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisStock Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Rainier (.356) and Berry's(.356) in plated 147 GR, and Kead Cast Lead in 147 (.3560 - .3565)<----uniformity somewhat of an issue with the last ones. Chris - The 147 LFPs that shoot so well from my 75B are Kead's. Did you try any other powders, and if so, how did they work? Alliant Promo ( Equivalent to Red Dot) is my preferred 9mm powder due it's exceedingly low cost and it's bulk. Issues with it and also with Ramshot Zip, which is a nice one for me in .40 and .45 as well. I didn't like the feel and high smoke I got with TG, as it would hang in the air a good 15 seconds or so in this humidity. Absolutely blind, couldn't even see a foot past the muzzle. Once I settled down with the 124/125's and Promo, I was set. It was easily the most accurate pistol I have ever owned, bar none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzy357 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I am running 147 grain copper plated bullet over 3,5 grains of N340 in my Pardini GT9-6 at 915 fps. Never had any sign of tumbling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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