Hammer Position at the Start Signal

[Cy Soto]

According to Appendix D4 (Production Division)

"Special Conditions: Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal"

Does this mean that the hammer must be resting on the firing pin (as in photo "A") or decocked to "safe action" (photo "B")?

BTW the photo shows a CZ SP-01 without a decocking lever; hammer must be manually lowered.

And also, if the hammer is lowered, must the shooter also engage the thumb safety?

[Albert]

I believe the rule requires those pistols without the decocker lever to have the hammer rest at the fully decocked position as shown in your photo/example A. I noticed a squad mate with the same pistol and he was cautiously setting the hammer with his support thumb into the decocked position. I let him finish all the strings in the particular COF and them discussed with him about this very same issue and mentioned and showed him the way I decock the hammer to the fully decocked position. Example B is for those pistols that have the decocking lever that will decock the hammer at the decock position as shown in your example/photo B.

[alellis]

And also, if the hammer is lowered, must the shooter also engage the thumb safety?

You can't engage the safety when the hammer is fully down.

al

[Nik Habicht]

Short answer -- if the gun has a decocker, use it. Whatever position the factory designed that mechanism to put the hammer in is acceptable. If the gun does not have a decocker, secure the hammer, and with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, depress the trigger and then gently let the hammer go all the way forward.....

[eerw]

the safety need not be applied to a gun in the full decocked position.

my impression from the the discussions and the latest NROI ruling. if a gun has a decocker, the full decocked position is where the hammer falls. if the gun has a manual safety, the hammer must be lowered to the lowest position of rest.

[Viggen]

With the SP-01 proper start is Position A.

[Cy Soto]

You can't engage the safety when the hammer is fully down.

al

That's true but I was hoping that the "correct" starting position was "B" (and it can be engaged in this position).

[Albert]

You can't engage the safety when the hammer is fully down.

al

That's true but I was hoping that the "correct" starting position was "B" (and it can be engaged in this position).

You can always try it until you run into a knowledgeable RO who will till you to set the hammer down all the way.

Also, you can engage the safety but you don't have to.

[kimel]

NROI Rulings

Title: Decockers at half cock

Created: 3/06/08

Updated: 3/18/08

Effective: 3/18/08

Rule number: Appendix D4 Spec

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question

Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd?

Ruling

Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

[Flexmoney]

You can't engage the safety when the hammer is fully down.

al

That's true but I was hoping that the "correct" starting position was "B" (and it can be engaged in this position).

You can always try it until you run into a knowledgeable RO who will till you to set the hammer down all the way.

Lame. A REAL knowledgable RO might DQ you for cheating.

[racerba]

That's true but I was hoping that the "correct" starting position was "B" (and it can be engaged in this position).

If you have a decocker, position "B" would be the correct position and you do not have to engage the manual safety.

[SA Friday]

According to Appendix D4 (Production Division)

"Special Conditions: Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal"

Does this mean that the hammer must be resting on the firing pin (as in photo "A") or decocked to "safe action" (photo "B")?

BTW the photo shows a CZ SP-01 without a decocking lever; hammer must be manually lowered.

And also, if the hammer is lowered, must the shooter also engage the thumb safety?

Cy, your glock doesn't have a hammer on it

There's a huge thread on this that resulted in the posted ruling in the Production section.

[Cy Soto]

Cy, your glock doesn't have a hammer on it

I just finished giving the Glock a thorough cleaning and it will now go into hibernation for a while. In the mean time I will take the CZ out to play... That is until the wife starts shooting Production and claims proper ownership of the pistol. I have to shoot it while I still can!!

[SA Friday]

Cy, your glock doesn't have a hammer on it

I just finished giving the Glock a thorough cleaning and it will now go into hibernation for a while. In the mean time I will take the CZ out to play... That is until the wife starts shooting Production and claims proper ownership of the pistol. I have to shoot it while I still can!!

Getting the wife shooting is the ultimate way to ensure a kitchen pass. It doubles your ammo expense though. Well worth it.

[Shay1911]

Frankly, I don't feel any advantage in starting from half cock than a fully decocked position. I tried it a couple of times and didn't notice enough difference.

[Cy Soto]

I agree, there is really no advantage on that first DA trigger pull. I asked because I believe that there is less of a chance of an accidental discharge when lowering the trigger to the "half cock" position than doing so all the way down.

I don't know if all DA/SA pistols work the same way but, on this particular gun, if you hold the hammer, pull the trigger and release it, and finally lower the hammer, there is little (if any) chance of the hammer contacting the firing pin. But in order to lower the hammer all the way down, you have to keep the trigger pulled throughout the whole motion which means that the hammer could slip and... well let's say that you won't be expected to help with the tear-down of the stages at the end of the match.

[Cy Soto]

Getting the wife shooting is the ultimate way to ensure a kitchen pass. It doubles your ammo expense though. Well worth it.

Our agreement is that she pays for the bullets as long as I reload it for her. That works for me!!

[EZ Bagger]

A fairly recent NROI ruling that doesn't sound like it applies here, is nonetheless informative....

Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd?

Ruling

Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

eerw has a lot of experience with the Cheezies. I'm sure he'd help you figure out safe and legal method of complying.

[Chuck Anderson]

The way to comply is to fully decock the gun as specified in the rule book. If it's got a decocker, you have to use it and where it decocks to is where you start. If it doesn't have a decocker, lower it all the way down.

I would worry so much about the CZ design and AD's when doing this. I've had the hammer slip about half way down. The round still didn't go off. Not something I would want to try on purpose but I don't worry about it anymore either.

[Boris Zaretsky]

According to Appendix D4 (Production Division)

"Special Conditions: Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal"

Does this mean that the hammer must be resting on the firing pin (as in photo "A") or decocked to "safe action" (photo "B")?

BTW the photo shows a CZ SP-01 without a decocking lever; hammer must be manually lowered.

And also, if the hammer is lowered, must the shooter also engage the thumb safety?

The rule says (match DQ is for):

10.5.11. Holstering a loaded gun in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hummer cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3. A revolver with hummer cocked.

Now, let’s see what constitutes “hummer cocked” in 10.5.11.2 for self-loading pistols.

Here are the rules for handgun ready position:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hummer fully down or decocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hummer fully down, or chamber loaded and hummer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

Note that neither 8.1.2.2 nor 8.1.2.3 say anything about half-cocked hummer where as 10.5.11.2 says nothing about how much the hummer is cocked all together. Any cocking of a hummer without safety engaged is subject to 10.5.11.2. Therefore considering figure B in your post you should be able to engage safety before holstering the gun. If not – it is match disqualification per 10.5.11.2. If, however, you can demonstrate to RO that by depressing decocking mechanism the hummer goes only half way, you should be OK. If there is no decocking mechanism on the gun, you’d better to put hummer all the way down as in figure A.

[JThompson]

According to Appendix D4 (Production Division)

"Special Conditions: Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal"

Does this mean that the hammer must be resting on the firing pin (as in photo "A") or decocked to "safe action" (photo "B")?

BTW the photo shows a CZ SP-01 without a decocking lever; hammer must be manually lowered.

And also, if the hammer is lowered, must the shooter also engage the thumb safety?

Cy, your glock doesn't have a hammer on it

There's a huge thread on this that resulted in the posted ruling in the Production section.

Yup.

[SA Friday]

According to Appendix D4 (Production Division)

"Special Conditions: Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal"

Does this mean that the hammer must be resting on the firing pin (as in photo "A") or decocked to "safe action" (photo "B")?

BTW the photo shows a CZ SP-01 without a decocking lever; hammer must be manually lowered.

And also, if the hammer is lowered, must the shooter also engage the thumb safety?

The rule says (match DQ is for):

10.5.11. Holstering a loaded gun in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hummer cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3. A revolver with hummer cocked.

Now, let’s see what constitutes “hummer cocked” in 10.5.11.2 for self-loading pistols.

Here are the rules for handgun ready position:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hummer fully down or decocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hummer fully down, or chamber loaded and hummer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

Note that neither 8.1.2.2 nor 8.1.2.3 say anything about half-cocked hummer where as 10.5.11.2 says nothing about how much the hummer is cocked all together. Any cocking of a hummer without safety engaged is subject to 10.5.11.2. Therefore considering figure B in your post you should be able to engage safety before holstering the gun. If not – it is match disqualification per 10.5.11.2. If, however, you can demonstrate to RO that by depressing decocking mechanism the hummer goes only half way, you should be OK. If there is no decocking mechanism on the gun, you’d better to put hummer all the way down as in figure A.

DUDE! it's a hAmmer.

[Boris Zaretsky]

DUDE! it's a hAmmer.

Thanks. I actually appreciate corrections such as this one. Once hit with the hAmmer over the head and I will remember it for good.

Thanks again.

[racerba]

What would be considered a half-cocked hummer?! can there be such a thing?

[Boris Zaretsky]

What would be considered a half-cocked hummer?! can there be such a thing?

I think it is the one on the photo B.