Johann the Horrible Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 My competition gun developed three cracks last Saturday. I managed to get hold of an Ithaca slide at very short notice and this will installed this week. My gunsmith friend says I will be able to shoot the gun on Saturday. This is marvelous as I am leaving on next week Thursday for the second leg of the Nationals. One of the things the gunsmith is proposing is to convert the barrel to a “cone lock-up system”. I trust the guy as he has been building guns for me since the early 1980`s but I do not know this “cone” system. Is it any good? The gun needs to be 100% reliable as on the 14th and 15th I will be shooting Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I'm guessing your talking about a "cone-barrel" as opposed to the standard barrel and barrel bushing arrangement. If that's the case, you will probably notice that the pistol will cycle slower and softer with a cone barrel than it did with a bushing/barrel. Which may not be a good thing right before the Nats. Is it a compensated or non-compensated pistol? Cone barrel's are common and popular for non-compensated pistols. The main reason being that they do make the gun "feel" softer. They're also easier to fit initially, and easier to disassemble/re-assemble than a bushing and barrel. And be sure to chronograph your loads with the new barrel before the match. You never know how fast a new barrel will shoot until you test it. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 Sorry it is a Standard Division gun built on a Para 45 frame. Current factor is about 175 but I have tons of 192 Factor stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 (edited) Sorry to bother again:Should the cone push the Power Factor up or bring it down. I am sensitive to that as I attained a Power Factor of 169.99 at the previous Nationals and would not like a repeat "performance". If I am to get the PF right I basically have this Saturday to sort it out as I am leaving for the Nationals on Thursday. PS: The gunsmith is adding the cone to the existing barrel. Edited June 4, 2008 by Johann the Horrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I'm guessing your talking about a "cone-barrel" as opposed to the standard barrel and barrel bushing arrangement. If that's the case, you will probably notice that the pistol will cycle slower and softer with a cone barrel than it did with a bushing/barrel. Which may not be a good thing right before the Nats.Is it a compensated or non-compensated pistol? Cone barrel's are common and popular for non-compensated pistols. The main reason being that they do make the gun "feel" softer. They're also easier to fit initially, and easier to disassemble/re-assemble than a bushing and barrel. And be sure to chronograph your loads with the new barrel before the match. You never know how fast a new barrel will shoot until you test it. be What is it about the cone lockup that makes it feel softer shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 If it aint broke dont fix it. Its alot easier to get your gun to run the way it was then to go start changing things. A cone bushing is basically a screwed on cone shaped bushing that is attached to the barrel instead of the slide. Basically locks up like a bull barrel. It may add a tad of non cycling weight to the front end but I see no advantage whatsoever over a standard bushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 If it aint broke dont fix it. Its alot easier to get your gun to run the way it was then to go start changing things. A cone bushing is basically a screwed on cone shaped bushing that is attached to the barrel instead of the slide. Basically locks up like a bull barrel. It may add a tad of non cycling weight to the front end but I see no advantage whatsoever over a standard bushing. I have shot probably over 250K rounds thru guns with cone lockups...and personally really like them...I was just curious what Brian thought made them feel softer shooting than a bushing gun... As far as getting your gun to run...never had a problem with any cone lockup pistol I ever had...maybe you ought to try it before you bash it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 What is it about the cone lockup that makes it feel softer shooting? It's the extra weight on the barrel. It delays the unlocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 As far as getting your gun to run...never had a problem with any cone lockup pistol I ever had...maybe you ought to try it before you bash it... Maybe you ought to read the original thread I was replying to before worrying about whether I was bashing something or not. The guy is leaving next Thursday for his Nationals match. That isnt the time to be experimenting with new setups and playing with barrel lockup. Fit the existing bushing to the new slide and the slide to the barrel and frame maintain the barrel to frame and feedramp fit. You stand a much better chance of having a 100% gun in a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 As far as getting your gun to run...never had a problem with any cone lockup pistol I ever had...maybe you ought to try it before you bash it... Maybe you ought to read the original thread I was replying to before worrying about whether I was bashing something or not. The guy is leaving next Thursday for his Nationals match. That isnt the time to be experimenting with new setups and playing with barrel lockup. Fit the existing bushing to the new slide and the slide to the barrel and frame maintain the barrel to frame and feedramp fit. You stand a much better chance of having a 100% gun in a week. If he is asking which is better, that tells me that he is not doing it himself, also this close to the big match tells me he isn't sure what makes his pistol run or not run...thus, one could safely postulate that a 'smith is doing it for him...IF the smith is worth his salt, getting either setup to run is guarenteed, if the smith is questionable, so is the functionality of the piece.. My question remains...do you have any first hand knowledge or not...and BTW my reading skills are just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I don't like cones much, I prefer a bull barrel when a heavy barrel is wanted. Cones just won't stay tight as long, very little surface area compared to a bull barrel. Cones do shoot softer, and done right they shoot great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I don't like cones much, I prefer a bull barrel when a heavy barrel is wanted. Cones just won't stay tight as long, very little surface area compared to a bull barrel. Cones do shoot softer, and done right they shoot great. I am not a smith but I do not understand you comment about very little surface area...I would guess you are talking about the diameter which contacts the slide...Help me understand how a cone with a diameter of say .750 and a bull bbl with the same diameter in the same place is any different? They both contact the inside of the slide in the same places and if they are the same diameter, there should be NO difference...right? the old style comps we used to use had a cone lockup...the bbl was threaded back almost to the lugs, and the cone had a long sleeve behind the ramp of the cone...when screwed together, the sleeve went almost to the lugs..maybe to within .5 inches...lots of threaded area..never had one come loose either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 TL, I don't really know how to explain it well in print, but a cone is a cone and more less locks up on a diametrical ring. The bull barrel (fit correctly) has large 'pads' of contact with the slide when locked, and these pads have significant length to them. With both systems side by side you would easily see it and it would make sense. I am not saying cones are bad or don't work, they aren't bad and they do work. I think the bull is a better way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted June 5, 2008 Author Share Posted June 5, 2008 Thank you for all the feedback. The gunsmith that is rebuilding my gun know what he is about and I got excellent service from him for years and years. I kept as many parts of the original gun as I could because of time constraints. The old slide failed because the previous owner had to much metal removed from the area around the extractor tunnel. You could see that the gun was loaded by glancing at the ejection port! I used the slide because of all the other work done like the lightening cuts, the "haircut" the checkering on the rear of the slide and the specially made barrel-bushing. The barrel came with the slide and was fitted. My gunsmith called the slide a POS from the moment he first laid eyes on it but some customers think they know better than gunsmiths that has been doing gunsmithing since the late 60`s. This customer is now paying the school fees for that. What I was also told on another forum that the cone might wear the slide and cause the slide to fail earlier than with a bushing system. Although I take advice from everyone(I cannot think of everything myself) I will currently not interfere with the build. Any gunsmith that leaves all his other work just so that he can finish your job deserves to be left alone. I shudder if I think about the cost of this late hour rush job. The build should be finished either today or tomorrow. So then I can report back on how it worked and where it factors. The only problem at the moment is that Saturday I am shooting a Level 2 and that is not the way to test a gun, except if you are shooting Nationals the next weekend - so much pressure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted June 5, 2008 Author Share Posted June 5, 2008 Excellent news, for me! The gunsmith is dropping my gun off during lunch. I run a Coffee shop and cannot get out until closing time so he is bringing the gun to me. Look at the time frame: Sunday night: Notice the cracks in the slide Monday morning: Phoning everyone and his brother looking for a slide Tuesday morning: My friend William Stopforth drops the slide off at my shop. Tuesday afternoon: Drop the slides of at the gunsmith - he works at nigt to get the"new" slide ready Wednesday morning: The gunsmith picks up the the rest of the parts and start fitting the gun. Thursday afternoon: Gun ready, as tight as could be but ready for shooting in The best is that he does not even want to have his name mentioned as he has more than enough work as it is, thank you very much indeed. With friends like this I will shoot Nationals. I just hope that one day I will be able to do him a huge favor to thank him for all the extra bother that he went to . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 That's pretty kick ass that you got back up and running so quick! Good luck at Nationals! ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted June 29, 2008 Author Share Posted June 29, 2008 Right so I got the gun running after stuffing it up at Nats. I stuffed Nats up un the reloading room because the idiot that casts for me neglected to tell me that he started using a new bullet lube. As I tumble the rounds after reloading this new lube cacked on the bullet where it meets the case. Not much, not enough to see but enough to cause the gun not to extract. On one stage 72 seconds went by before the RO could tell me to ULASC. That is water under the bridge and at the next round of Nats 30-31 August this will not happen again. This cone lock-up system sent me thinking: If I was to cut about an inch of the slide off and silver soldered it to the cone would this not bring the recoiling mass down? If you look at the 1 to 3 rule (one ounce on the barrel is equal to 3 ounces on the slide) it could make a vast differents. The cone is long enough to have enough "meat" for the "new" front end of the slide to lock up on. The reason I am typing this and not working with a saw is that, as far as I know, no-one has done this before - or if they did do it it did not work and they told no-one. One fear that I have is that it could greatly exccelerate wear on the lugs. It sounds like such a sterling idea, is it really? Any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Might be a good idea but you'd basically be building a Commander with a one inch steel weight on the barrel probably not allowed, go to sti guns http://www.stiguns.com and check out the truesight. That's also about what your talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) Check out Combat Handguns, Sept, 08 issue. Page 48. "Accu-Lock". "It's the most significant improvement since the 1911's original design." I won't make any comments one way or the other, but I certainly have my opinions on it. However, if he has made over 500, or if the Tru-sight counts as the same thing it should be legal right? To bad I can't do it with a 6 inch gun yet. On another note, I'm doing some personal experimentation. I took a bull barrel and turned it down to mimic the profile of a cone barrel. I noticed an increase in slide speed (further ejection) and a shift in point of impact. I wanted the slide speed, not the impact shift. I didn't do much to the lock up area (other than some flutes in non critical areas and a very light polish to deburr the flutes). I wanted to compare full bull barrel vs. lighter barrel but I'm restricted to a non-bushing set up. The main thing I don't like is how the barrel sits when the slide is to the rear. Instead of resting on the slide at the front (full BB), the cone arrangement has the barrel floating out front. The hood is pressed up against the underside of the slide with the weight of the barrel (and the lugs on the pin is the pivot point). Functionally, it's fine. I actaully prefer how the gun shoots. I have one other thing to try in regards to the barrel / slide lockup. Edited July 1, 2008 by want2race Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Johnny Lim (LimCat) has a gun kind of like what you're describing (got to see one at Area 1 this weekend and it was wild!). Check him out. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharonAnne9x23 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 J the H back in the mid 80s such modifications were tried before the advent of compensators or 38supers. It will do what you are looking for, however, since yours would be a ONE OFF I think it would be in Open division rather than Limited. Unless you are planning to make 500 of them. Blessed Be SharonAnne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Here's a pic of what I was trying to describe. Interesting about the longevity of accuracy issue (HSMITH). I want to try one more thing to eliminate that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 J the Hback in the mid 80s such modifications were tried before the advent of compensators or 38supers. It will do what you are looking for, however, since yours would be a ONE OFF I think it would be in Open division rather than Limited. Unless you are planning to make 500 of them. Blessed Be SharonAnne Wow, I grabbed my rules so fast I almost tore them. (No mean feat if you take it that they are digital LOL)Nope, in IPSC we are allowed to do pretty much anything as long as they fit the box for Standard Division, see Appendix D2. Pity that guys doing the same sport cannot get along with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Here's a pic of what I was trying to describe. Interesting about the longevity of accuracy issue (HSMITH). I want to try one more thing to eliminate that issue. Help me understand what is so remarkable about it....thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 As far as the barrel in the pic, there is nothing remarkable about it really. It was really heavy 6 inch bull barrel, now it's a much lighter barrel. The STI, KKM and Schuemann barrels have what I call a full contour. The bottom of the barrel is the same profile from chamber to muzzle. Only the top is cut to allow for lock up. This equates to a heavy barrel. For a 5 inch gun it's not terribly noticable and can be countered with a little slide lightening. With a 6 inch gun that is a lot of extra metal way out front. However, that full contour also leaves more meat to interface with the slide, providing potentially better (and longer lasting) accuracy. Also, from what I've seen so far, a smoother slide action. The benefit (over a full bull) is a lighter nose end of the gun and higher cyclic speed (benefit for some, not for all). From the radial lugs to the "cone" is .005 over the diameter of a standard bushing barrel. I'm not selling these, or trying to sell anyone on the idea (not new anyway), but since the OT was of cone barrels figured this was a good place to discuss it. The pic shows what a cone lockup barrel looks like for those that wondered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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