vrmn1 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I looked around but didn't find exactly the answer I looking for so I am asking. I want to try some 38 Short Colt brass for steel and icore. I cast a 121gr rn bullet that has worked great out of special brass anywhere between 700 to 1000 fps. No leading and very accurate so I thought I would try that bullet. I size them .358. I have shot them out of several k frames, n frames and Ruger single actions. So these are the powders I have on hand in enough quantity. Unique Tite Group W231 Which one would you guys suggest? Another option if you don't think I will get good result with the 121 bullet is I also cast a 158gr round nose bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Vrmn, I've played a little with the 38 short colt but not much. However the shooters around The Tontitown match that I get to go to use the 160 lead and sometimes go down to a 147 plated. From the conversations with them they have had trouble with a 358 diameter bullet in the short colt brass. Let us know how you get it working . later rdd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 From the conversations with them they have had trouble with a 358 diameter bullet in the short colt brass. Any idea why? In 38 special brass this bullet has worked great especially out of my 4" 19. When I got the mold I was a bit worried if it would work because I wasn't sure it would clean up all the way around in a .358 sizer but it does. And it shoots great. I have shot my best steel challenge scores with it. I shot my 6" 19 this past weekend and shot my best time ever. But it also prompted me to start working with the short colt brass because with moons in this gun it wasn't as fast to load as I would have hoped. I KNOW I KNOW I should have to load in steel challenge but I did twice to finish the run, I did have to keep either of those time. Dry fire practice with the short cases has prove they load a lot faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 From the conversations with them they have had trouble with a 358 diameter bullet in the short colt brass. Any idea why? In 38 special brass this bullet has worked great especially out of my 4" 19. I think I can answer this one. It's because the interior diameter of the brass begins to narrow down to the web at the base. Because of the length of the .38 Short Colt brass, the cylindrical interior "barrel" of the brass is much shorter than it is with .38 Spl. brass. Even with .357 cast bullets, I have noticed that if I seat them too deep in the .38 Short Colt brass I start to get bulges that interfere with proper loading of the loaded rounds into the chambers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Me too....Mike hit it on the head......Think of the case as a Rimmed 9x19. If you go with 9x19 OAL and load data you will be pretty close on book loads. There is nothing wrong with using .358 bullets, but you cant seat them to the crimp groove. I found that out, and tried the Lee factory crimp die and squeezed them down to fit, but it was a pain in the butt. You will have to seat them out farther than the crimp groove and use a taper crimp. It is just a little different animal. I have found better accuracy using longer bearing surface bullets to deal with the long jump you have to go in the cylinder to the forcing cone. A 11 degree forcing cone seems to work best for this as well. Bullets from 147 - 160 should be optimal for this and best accuracy. I have only tried the 147gr - 150gr bullets in .355 and .356 and had excellent results in full .357 cylinders and in a shortened short colt only cylinder. Good luck and have at it! Regards, DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 (edited) From the conversations with them they have had trouble with a 358 diameter bullet in the short colt brass. Any idea why? In 38 special brass this bullet has worked great especially out of my 4" 19. I think I can answer this one. It's because the interior diameter of the brass begins to narrow down to the web at the base. Because of the length of the .38 Short Colt brass, the cylindrical interior "barrel" of the brass is much shorter than it is with .38 Spl. brass. Even with .357 cast bullets, I have noticed that if I seat them too deep in the .38 Short Colt brass I start to get bulges that interfere with proper loading of the loaded rounds into the chambers. Thats what I figured. I think these bullets will be ok and the way I seat them I think will help. The mold I use is the 358242 I think is the number. I only lube the lower lube groove and use the upper lube groove as a crimp groove in 38's and they have worked great. Doing them that way in the short colt brass I am not seating them as deep and I hope they will work just as well. There is realy only about .125 of the bullet in the case. Edited May 8, 2008 by vrmn1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 Me too....Mike hit it on the head......Think of the case as a Rimmed 9x19. If you go with 9x19 OAL and load data you will be pretty close on book loads. There is nothing wrong with using .358 bullets, but you cant seat them to the crimp groove. I found that out, and tried the Lee factory crimp die and squeezed them down to fit, but it was a pain in the butt. You will have to seat them out farther than the crimp groove and use a taper crimp. It is just a little different animal. I have found better accuracy using longer bearing surface bullets to deal with the long jump you have to go in the cylinder to the forcing cone. A 11 degree forcing cone seems to work best for this as well. Bullets from 147 - 160 should be optimal for this and best accuracy. I have only tried the 147gr - 150gr bullets in .355 and .356 and had excellent results in full .357 cylinders and in a shortened short colt only cylinder.Good luck and have at it! Regards, DougC The short bearing surface on this bullet was a worry at first also but has not found to be a problem from 38 special case. I am a bit concerned about it with the Short Colt brass but we will have to see. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffl Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 V, one of the boys that shoots at Tontitown showed me a short colt round that uses 158 gr bullets and titegroup and another uses clays. I use VVN320 w/125gr bullet (lee mold # 90457 356-125 2R) which is a 9mm bullet as cast. my OAL is 1.140 3.8 gr. Shoots great am going to work up a load using titegroup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3P_Guy Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I know it's not on your list but we have had good luck so far with Clays powder with a 125gr. lead 9mm bullet and a 160gr. lead 38 bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffl Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 what loadings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 11, 2008 Author Share Posted May 11, 2008 (edited) OK so I finally got out to the range to test some loads. Not as many as planned because I forgot them setting on my bench. OH WELL. I did take the ones I thought held the most promise. Long story short, with my 125gr cast round nose bullet. The Lyman 358242 cast from WW with about 2% tin to make them cast better more than anything. Sized .358 using the upper lube groove as a crimp groove. Only lubing the lower groove. 6" Smith 19 cut for moon clips. New Starline 38 short colt brass. Win small pistol primer 1.145 OAL 3.6 gr Tite Group. 126 pf 6 shot 15 yards 1 3/4" group resting my wrist on bags. 4 shots 25 yards 2 1/2" group This gun has about 600 to 800 rounds through it since there has been so much as a patch down the barrel and it dirty but totally lead free. No recoil! The only negative but I am used to this because of the amount of cast bullets I use. SMOKEY!!!!!!!!! Edited May 11, 2008 by vrmn1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted May 11, 2008 Share Posted May 11, 2008 Win small pistol primer I don't believe I am familiar with this component...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted May 11, 2008 Share Posted May 11, 2008 Tony Will this gun and load be making it to Augusta next weekend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 11, 2008 Author Share Posted May 11, 2008 TonyWill this gun and load be making it to Augusta next weekend? Thats the plan. I have 148 short colt cases I hope that will be enough. I didn't want to load up on them and not know how they would work. I can use 38 specials if I need more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 11, 2008 Author Share Posted May 11, 2008 Win small pistol primer I don't believe I am familiar with this component...... I have the trigger on this gun about at 6 1/2 #. If I hand seat them they work fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted May 11, 2008 Share Posted May 11, 2008 Just a question here. By the time you seat a bullet way long in a 38 short colt case, what have you gained over using a 38 long colt case at the same oal with more bullet in the case? Seems too much like guys with their jamomatic open guns shooting 9mm major and the bullets seated so long they get knocked out of the case when the slide cycles, with amusing results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 11, 2008 Author Share Posted May 11, 2008 I am not seating these bullets really very long really. I am not really sure how much longer the long colt case are right off the top of my head. I use this same bullet seated the same way in 38 special cases. My reason for using the short colt cases is with special cases they are so long in moon clips there is just less length hanging out there. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted May 11, 2008 Share Posted May 11, 2008 Just a question here. By the time you seat a bullet way long in a 38 short colt case, what have you gained over using a 38 long colt case at the same oal with more bullet in the case? Seems too much like guys with their jamomatic open guns shooting 9mm major and the bullets seated so long they get knocked out of the case when the slide cycles, with amusing results. The benefit is in the ejection of the shorter case. Less chance of hang up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 What kind of match are you shooting this in again? Is there a power factor, or could you just go with 38S&W like ol' Ed MiGivern, and claim you're just a traditionalist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 What kind of match are you shooting this in again? Is there a power factor, or could you just go with 38S&W like ol' Ed MiGivern, and claim you're just a traditionalist? I am going to use this in ICORE. Yes the power factor is 120. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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