Why Not Have Weapon Transition Stages In Ipsc

[kurtm]

George:

Sounds like you guys got started around the same time as we did, and it is funny that we run things about the same! The only difference is that we set the pressident (sp?) of hot reholstering and slinging hot shotguns and rifles from the onset so we don't have to fight that fight too much now...except when it comes to holsters. (By the way those ghost holsters are way cool for hot reholstering and retention, but under stress it is hard to hit the pin in the trigger guard). It is also funny that different areas go for different gear...only 2 guys here use "tac" slings the rest use a Ching Sling or just a standard type strap loose enough to just put over your head.

3 cheers for the man from Michigan!!! The scambler was one of the cool things at Gunsite....so was the apitur (sp?). Hey Pat do you remember...I am sure you do!!! climbing into that tree at position 7 with your hot rifle, or shotgun slung and your hot pistol holstered....gooood stufff!!! I never realy thought about the difference between "transition" and "multi gun", but I like what both you and George have said! Table or cable....er sling! WOW!!!! 3 different areas coming onto harmony!! I think I will go shoot my shotgun till it glows in celebration!!!! KURT

P.S. Pat or George are either of you going to Jeff Crablits shotgun only match twards the end of this month?

[Flexmoney]

I think you full-time 3-gunners can get away with a bit more than we can with us once-in-a-while 3-gunners.

It is probably an issue of knowing your customers.

I just got back from the Michigan 3-gun that Patrick's club puts on. There was no reholstering. The multi-gun stages had the next gun (empty) on a table. I'd say that was about right for the shooters there (and here).

At our local match in Ohio, we nearly always have a hot-and-holstered pistol on the multi-gun stages. And, we move forward to a table/rack that has another hot gun. (Or we move sideways...no hot guns behind us.)

I wouldn't want to try the tac-sling, retention with our crowd.

[kurtm]

Mike45:

Do you mean " who is Middlebrookes "?

[George]

Hi Kurt,

I too have some disdain for out and out race holsters. I found it real disconcerting that my Limcat Stealth holster required a very deliberate process to "install" the pistol, so it now sits in a place of honor in my shootin' room because I love the way it looks, but hate the way it works.

--

Regards,

[2alpha]

Transition means something different to me than some of you guys evidently. To me a transition is for instance, dropping your long gun and letting it hang on the sling while drawing your pistol and continuing to engage targets. Stages where you set a gun down on a table are not really transition's in the tactical sense. That's like the cowboy shooters do and it's fun and not too hard to be safe at. Since USPSA matches are open to everyone you really do have to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator and take the equipment used into consideration. To do otherwise invites disasters and the lawsuits that come with them.

[George]

I agree that USPSA will never do the real thing with transition shooting for the above mentioned reasons, but that's no reason to not have the capability in your repertoire.

Meet the following requirements, and you can ask an awful lot of a shooter before anything gets dicey.

Pistol holster that actually holds pistol in during vigorous movement, yet still lets you install, and remove said pistol at will, with one hand, without any fidgeting. If you don't feel that you can run like a bat out of hell, or climb like a monkey without keeping a hand on your pistol, then the holster ain't good enuff. Choosing a holster position that is sensible for movement, not optimized for quick draw is quite often the only concession required here if the holster meets the retention requirements.

Mag pouches/Ammo carriers that don't drop their contents during strenuous activity, or stick out like sore thumbs that create complete snagfests whenever in close proximity to long guns. Try wearing your gear around the house for a bit doing normal activities with a long gun slung, and a holstered pistol, and you will begin to get an idea of what works or doesn't work real quick.

Regards,

[Nik Habicht]

I've only shot a couple of local three gun matches so far. In the interests of safety and because the bulk of the competitors would be inexperienced three gunners, we started every stage with a hot, holstered pistol if handgun shots were required in the stage. If we started with the pistol, then the rifle started unloaded, bolt locked open, on it's tactical sling. On the beep engage whatever pistol targets, when finished with those drop the mag, either eject the last round or fire it into the rear berm, ground the handgun, load rifle or shotgun and proceed to the end of the course. Unload and show clear, move to discarded gun, unload and show clear, call the range clear. The other scenario had you shooting long gun first, when you finished those targets, you'd ground the unloaded weapon, draw the pistol and move on. Everyone came through the matches safely and had fun ---- everyone used tactical slings on long guns and real holsters for handguns.

[a-44978]

I should have been more specific.My idea of weapons transitions was keeping it on you.

My fist (and last)match was in NC.My buddy gave me the cold shoulder when i asked him for help,so i bought a v-tac.I just finished tightning the rear adapter when our squad was up and of coarse i came up first in the shuffle

The RO was super!I got a crash coarse in weapon transitions complete with crawling through a (mock)tunnel while enguaging targets with my pistol(after running my ar dry) .I was hooked.I only hope this format becomes another ipsc,idpa,sass etc.

I wish i could go this year (dammmmit)

[2alpha]

Oh yeh to answer the question in the title of the thread. Because we don't have weapons! We have machines, blasters, bullet launchers, holster accesories, and so forth.

[kurtm]

Weapons? Weapons? Of course we got weapons! Out here all God's chillen got weapons..... To paraphrase Groucho Marx!

[KyleL]

Wow,

Way to go Kurt. Why can't you just sit down in the corner and behave... LOL

I sat back for awhile and decided I just had to say my piece. We have run Tactical 3 gun matches for several years in NC. This year we are running the North American Tactical three Gun, Aug 9-10.

Is it truly tactical, NO, we have no one shooting at us and we actually time you through the stages. It is still a game, not nearly as gamey tasting as IPSC. But still gamey.

I have shot IPSC for years and do enjoy the sport, however, sometimes it is hard to take the stupidity. For example, IPSC RO's stammer and stutter when we say you will shoot your Rifle dry, then transition to your pistol to finish the course of fire.

Now I will tell you what IPSC does at three gun that makes me drop the jaw. They allow you to just shoot your weapon off into the berm to make it clear, this is just crazy. This doesn't make sense.

With proper course design and good RO's, it is all possible.

Most people that shoot our match have remarked about our RO's, they are good because they are shooters first, RO's second. And they apply common sense... Something not often applied in large IPSC three gun matches.

Now before I start getting a bunch of hate mail, I must say I have shot a few large three gun matches using IPSC type rules that were great. Carl Carbon in Washington does a fine job. He places empty boxes pointed in a safe direction, for the shooter to ground their blaster in. Or as Kurt said WEAPON in. Weapon, did I say weapon........

The Boys down in Bend do a pretty good job too.

Mystery mountain is great as well.

I think if Three gun is going to be successful we need to seperate USPSA three gun from the other matches. Shoot what you like, I like both, I just like Tactical three gun a little better. It also requires more realistic Weapons.

Gordon, don't take anything personal on this page. Just enjoy the great info and discussions. I have dabbled in other forums and this is by far the best shooting forum out there.

God Bless the USA

KyleL

VTAC

[George]

Now I will tell you what IPSC does at three gun that makes me drop the jaw. They allow you to just shoot your weapon off into the berm to make it clear, this is just  crazy. This doesn't make sense.

[kurtm]

Okay, Okay, Okay!! Master Guns Lamb, Oops! Wrong "green " institue. C.S.M. Lamb. I will go sit in the corner and behave. When any one calls me a " loose old loony" it,s time to quite ( LOL). You going to Cramblit's match? KURT

[MattBurkett]

BTW Off topic, but, we have the new Ghost Holster Pinless in stock. SVI/STI only and some 1911's.

[lmccrock]

At my local non-affiliated club, we just had a shoot where the shotgun was to be slung or carried after the shotgun portion of the stage was complete, and a transition to handgun was performed. It was difficult for those who had no training in how to perform this feat. It was not the first time we had done this, but the first time in a year or so that the empty shotgun was not left behind while the handgun portion continued. The club will likely not have future stages where the long gun is retained.

Why not have transition stages? DQ'ing new shooters on the first stage is necessary when a safety violation occurs, but it is not a good way to keep new shooters. Even experienced shooters had problems. I wish I had a good answer for this.

Different venue: tactical league (2-person teams) but the range owner/league director requires all shooters to have taken his handgun/carbine transition class. At least the shooters get some dry practice with someone watching, and they get to shake down new and unfamiliar equipment. Not practical in any walkup environment such as typical matches, but maybe post an early start time for new shooters for an equipment check?

Lee

[rkgsmith]

Just curious as to a ruling on this problem. Say I have my firearm on a three point sling and transition to a handgun. My firearm now points at a 45 degree angle about 2 feet in front of my left foot. But what happens if I move down range and turn about 165 degrees to engage a target on my left. Now my slung firearm is breaking the 180. How is that addressed. DQ or Not. In my experience shooting any match is tough, 3 gunning is even tougher for those who don't always handle the rifle or shotgun. I am fortunate to have to do transition drills as part of my job, very few others fall into that catagory. Untrained shooters doing transition drills make me very nervous.

[GordonB]

Dude, if you think the response in question was "comming [sic] off like a jerk," I would guess you have not been online too long, either here or elsewhere. That was pretty mild!

I don't know kurtm, and while his message wasn't the most diplomatic I've seen, it was far, far from being worthy of getting upset over it. It sounds like you really have an emotional attachment to your idea and you're taking it personally when someone dismisses it with a bit of sarcasm. It's not my business, but since you posted your feelings publically, I would recommend that you consider not taking it so seriously.

You'll also note that in the message you quoted, it was your ideas/words that were dismissed, not an ad hominem. When you resort to the name calling, you bring it to a different level that won't win you many friends or allies.

I wasn't looking for allies and I wasn't emotionally attached to my idea. Matt Burkett basically voiced the same opinion as KurtM. You don't see me calling him a "jerk."

My point is, is there is a way to convey your opinion without being a jerk.

And I don't see why KurtM can't do it. And I don't see why I can't point it out when he does.

[kurtm]

Kyle:

COME ON !!!! Let me out of the corner!!!!! K.R. Millerbrooks.....my new tag line!

[kurtm]

A44978:

All this friendly banter aside, I think you now see why weapon transitions, at most matches are strickly verboten! Kyle's match, and Rocky Mountain 3-Gun are about the only ones that " do it ". Any of the L.E. only matches we do also have the chance of it happening... and forgive me for saying, I trust the 3-gun guys more than most of the L.E.,when it comes to safety awareness. This is NOT a gig but an observation from putting on these types of matches for the last 7 years or so. It sounds like you are L.E and I would like to invite you to the match we are puitting on for Point Blank Armor in JUlY... Military is also welcome. Look for the post on the 3-gun site on this forum. KURT

[MattBurkett]

And I don't see why KurtM can't do it.  And I don't see why I can't point it out when he does. 

Kurt is verbosely challenged. (Yeah, verbosely is a word, look it up!) BTW that was pretty mean comparing Kurt to DR. I know DR and Kurt is no DR. There is no reason though in the middle of a good debate to call anyone a jerk even if they are being sarcastic, stupid head.

If anyone gets to make fun of someone around here its me!

(ROFLMAO, boy do I hope you have a sense of humor)

Take care and will be back on after the MGM PSYCHOMAN 10 stage, 6 gun, 1021 round match. Bet there are a few thinking I am making that up too! Yes, they added two stages and two more guns!

[Custom Glock Racing]

stupid head.

It's a schooner

[kurtm]

Matt:

I was going to change my byline to D.R. Millerbrooks but then the guys would have started calling me "Doctor", eh can't win! For calling me verbosely challenged... your pentance is to fire a REDICULESLY HUGE NUMBER of rounds through all 3...er ...6 guns in the near future!!! There, Take that!! Hey say hi to Jim Wall while you are up in Potato land! KURT

[rhino]

And I don't see why I can't point it out when he does.

Uh, you did point it out. No one stopped you or even questioned your right (or in this case privilege) to do so. But when you say something, you're as responsible for your words as was the person you were criticizing. So I am just as free to comment on your comments as you were initially. Get it?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Back to an earlier question: You're doing a stage with transition, and as you lustily whack paper and steel with your handgun your obviously empty AR/fluffy the comp gun is dangling on your bungee tac sling. It swings over your feet, around your shins, and points ten feet uprange. Finally, when you kneel to shoot through a port, you lift the muzzle to keep it out of the dirt. It points straight back at the RO.

Is it a 180 violation? If so, we can't do transitions and keep the 180 rule. If it isn't, explain why not. Also, explain how it differs from a handgun pointed similarly.

Can we avoid the problem with chamber flags?

Or do we (literally) table the subject?

And please don't answer with a variation of: "We do 3-gun tactical matches all the time, have never had a problem, so what's the problem?" The problem is, it breaks the 180 degree safety rule.

how do we solve it?

[kellyn]

Once again, Patrick -our voice of reason- brings us back to the point. He's right, you can't have a 180 rule and do rifle-pistol transitions where the rifle is retained by a tac sling. Of course, Kyle does not have a 180 rule. His match prohibits "unsafe gunhandling" and leaves that to the RO to determine (or divine). Kind of like pornography or obscenity, I know it when I see it. But that's not much of a legal standard. That works with good ROs (which Kyle has) but would fall short when applied nationwide. I like the 180 rule. It gives shooters and ROs a clear line that "unsafe gunhandling" does not.

I know I was breaking the hell out of the 180 w/ my FAL during last year's North Carolina Tac 3 Gun, but it was confirmed unloaded before dropping it on the tac sling. Perhaps that is the solution, the shooter unloads and the RO confirms "clear" and then the sacrosanct 180 rule is violated in this one instance. Of course, one's performance is now subject to how fast another (the RO) reacts.

I certainly see a rift between those who recognize that thousands of police and soldiers use tac slings all the time without mayhem ensuing and those who want clear cut safety rules to prevent tragic accidents. Although I want to completely agree with Kyle and DR uh I mean Kurt, I have to recognize that Pat makes a good point. When you throws dozens of inexperienced shooters UNDER MATCH PRESSURE into the mix, the 180 rule is a good idea and the idea of people running around with loaded ARs on tac slings while shooting stages gives me the heebie-jeebies. I would have no problem with Kyle or Kurt or matt but not all shooters are of their caliber ( get it .... caliber!!)