kurtm Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Pat: Go to the " questions that don't fit anywhere else " colum and check out "an alarming trend" thread. Read them all and then come on back with rule talk. I think you will see Kyle and I aren't alone. This is not ment to rile you, but just inform you of how many view excessive rule making! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-44978 Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 Kurt,patrick,and who's Kyle? just funnin Good points made by all and the answer to the question at hand. Why not have transition stages in IPSC? This is a fairly advanced technique that IPSC did not invision R.Os need to be a little more experienced to deal with and design stages to both accomidate safety and challenge the shooter Tactical 3 gun is a little more hard core."Tactical 3 gun"theres that term again HUmmmmmmmmmmm,i wonder short and sour, sound right? The only three gun match in my area everymonth a mere 2hr15mins one way is an IPSC match and several of them shoot in open class only because they have an optic on their rifle and reminisce about trips to Kyle's match. Next time i see them i will ask if they want to do somthing here,if for no other reason but to warm up for NC I perfere a sharp stick in the eye instead of missing that match, unfortunately i'm shrapening it as we speak! Thanks to all Al Browndyke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 The way I see the rule issue is if you are trying to adhere to a 180 concept for muzzle control, then defined limits (rules) are needed, but if you are not using a sharply defined safety net, then common sense, and good RO's are indeed the ticket. If USPSA ever tries real weapon transition, then the existing 180 precedent will have to be adhered to in some manner. If it ain't a USPSA match, then all bets are off, and whatever works in that context is going to be the best tool for the job. The choice of how you go about dealing with this issue is probably best based on the lowest common denominator, which in this case would seem to be the gun handling skills of the average shooter at any given match. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3GunF1Guy Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Before starting in this sport I was involved in auto racing. In the racing world we had a couple of thing we would do 1- Read the rule book! 2- Read the rule book! 3- Memorize the rulebook. 4- Understand what the rulebook says NOT what everyone one including the officials “Think” what the rulebook says. 5- Find every exception you can and use it to your advantage, because if it doesn’t say that you cannot do it, then you can. I really enjoyed reading this post and after reading the USPSA rule book here is my two cents worth. 1- There is no “180 degree” rule in the USPSA book. Read 10.3.4 it says 90 degrees from the median of the backstop. It does not say only one backstop is allowed. The real rule says “point the gun in an unsafe direction. Or safe angles of fire. 2.1.2 2- Multiple gun transition. The rules do not say that you cannot do it. But there are some parts of the rulebook you need to be aware of. 10.3.5.2 you must hold onto your gun until you set it down and then you cannot move more than an arms length away from it. But, you can reholster your gun 5.3.3 just remember that it cannot be required to do so in the course description. 2.1.4 & 2.2.6.1& 8.5.2 3- The only kink in this whole rulebook thing is 7.1.2 They make the CRO God. So they can make up their own rules and claim that it’s a “safety thing”. 4- Unfortunately almost everyone has forgotten rules 1.1.5 & 1.1.6 this is supposed to be a dynamic, challenging sport with courses of fire that represent that. I love 1.1.6 “No shooting challenge or time limit may be protested as being prohibitive.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I want my match fee returned for Kyle's match! I'm gett'in a'skeert After reading this stuff, I just now realized how farg'in dangerous this sport is! This common sense stuff is soooo dangerous....... we need rules!!!!!! Remember, it's not fun and games anymore after someone loses an eye, or gets blowed up. Actually I wish you guys would start calling each other names again. That was cool. I'm having a beer, reading this stuff, and thinking about changing my line of work. I train cops with guns everyday. They sometimes have 3 or so loaded guns on them at the same time. We actually have to move around too! If cops can do this reletively safely, avid shooters certainly can. Cops are usually not gun people, they shoot because they have to, not because they love to. Common sense goes a long way! Anyone who has ever seen Kyle's RO's in action, know they are squared away and competent, even without a rule book. They shoot for a living and are cool as the other side of a pillow! I'm done now, I'm having another beer, gettin ready to watch my neighbors children playing with some celibratory explosives. I love the life of danger. Kurt, call someone else a JERK!!!!!! Lets get it on!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Todd: You have already had too much celibratory beer ( is that the dark kind? I love the dark kind!) I didn't call anybody a JERK someone called me a JERK! And now to break out the carbide cannon and sparklers and the oxy/acetaline torch....and the beer! I just can't feel safe with out those things around me...oh yeah and a concealed piostol that goes every where with me too! HAPPY 4TH KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-44978 Posted July 4, 2003 Author Share Posted July 4, 2003 Engrossing bantor aside.Does IPSC has to be the last word everytime we pick up a blaster,holster acc,party favor? Is there a big enough following for a tactical shooting somthin somthin? Why not?! So far the IPSC 3 gun i have seen is a bunch of shooters treating it all as a another pistol match I say the same people that would get stuck in open because of optic on the rifle only are the same people that don't care about doing transitions,retreating stages or crawling(get dirty,oh my god). How many? Seperate division? Seperate entity? Hummmmmm.Maybe? Whatyathink? Happy 4th gotta get ready to practice tomarrow,just because its fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 A44978: There are at least 4 other entities besides USPSA/IPSC that are mainly centered on "tactical" 3-gun. These are World Championship 3-Gun/Swat Magazine...I believe the original in this sport. The International Multigun association ( these are the rules we us for the Rocky Mountain 3-gun Match in Raton). Noth American Championship match ( Kyle's deal), and MGM 3-GUN. ALL of these entities have a Tactical/Modified/S.O.F. limited optic class, and ALL of these entities have multigun stages. I really shouldn't post on this subject as it really is about USPSA and their rules and I try to stay away from USPSA 3-gun, because of the things we have already discussed, but after seeing how popular "tactical/modified/single low powered optic" is and how many people enjoy multigun stages, at the other matches I just kind of get carried away. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Do yo have URLs for the web sites of those organizations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-44978 Posted July 4, 2003 Author Share Posted July 4, 2003 utah multi-gun ass.rocky mountain 3-gun tucson rifle club Try these, i hope i posted them right,i just found um myself Wow they worked!I'm a hacker in mechanic's clothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleL Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 RHINO Here are the rules we use. I guess the reason we don't want a rule book is because we don't have enough to fill more than a page. Unless we use some HUGE print. North American Tactical 3-Gun Championships© Match Rules © This is a tactical match. All holsters and gear must be for duty use. This will be a physically and mentally demanding match. Please bring your good attitude with you. "The Range" is a cold range. No weapons will be loaded until directed by the range officer. Pistols will stay in the holster. Shotgun and rifle will be carried muzzle down, bolt to the rear. There will be no warnings. Unsafe handling of firearms will result in match disqualification. NO ALCOHOL will be consumed at the range. Scoring: Time will be added for each point that you drop. Time will also be added for misses and no-shoots. RO's decisions are final. PISTOL RULES No compensators or optics. Extended magazines are authorized for single stack pistols only. 140 mm mags - OK in all pistols. Iron sights only. Holster must retain gun securely throughout match. No speed holsters allowed. A loaded gun falling out of holster will result in a match DQ. All equipment must be for duty use. If it was designed specifically for IPSC it is not allowed. RIFLE RULES The same rifle must be used throughout the match. Optics are permitted, but only one per rifle. Optics may not be swapped between stages. Compensators are allowed. No bi-pods. No steel core ammunition. SHOTGUN RULES No optics or speed loaders. No compensators. Absolutely no porting allowed. Chokes may not be ported No steel shot. Barrels of no more than 22 inches are recommended due to the tightly confined shooting areas. No more than nine rounds in shotgun at any time. Bird shot is sufficient. Targets will be clay pigeons and steel plates. Now that you have read all of our rules.. aren't you completely disgusted. MAybe I should start my own Organization......I can see it now... National Viking Tactics Three Gun Cool Guy Tactical Combat Concealed Practical Defensive Offensive Invasive Passive Active Interactive Practical Impractical Shooting Association NVTTTGCGTCCPDOIPAIPISA. Come one come all......... Kurt even you are invited!!!!!!!!!!! Now Kelly I don't know???????? God Bless America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kyle L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-44978 Posted July 5, 2003 Author Share Posted July 5, 2003 National Viking Tactics Three Gun Cool Guy Tactical Combat Concealed Practical Defensive Offensive Invasive Passive Active Interactive Practical Impractical Shooting Association Wow good one lol So the moral to this story is quit whining and shoot a handful of major matches a year and put up with IPSC in between? I was at a IPSC pistol match today and someone brought that same idea up to me,except they had a few less initials in the title.Anyhooooo, it was just a thought from a greenubie Rhino i forgot the Viking Tactics link (ooops) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 . . . This will be a physically and mentally demanding match. Please bring your good attitude with you. This eliminates me from the start! You know what they say . . . "When the going gets tough, the Rhino starts resting." I really like your rules (especially the brevity) and shooting concepts of your match. I just would not be able to handle the physical parts, especially in the heat. Maybe I'll start an Arctic Conditions 3-Gun Survival Match. I'll use your shooting and equipment rules, but it will have to be at least -10 deg F outside for the match to commence. Now THAT would be a test of equipment and attitude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleL Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Rhino, Sign me up. I have trigger finger mittens, wool underwear, and ever boy from So Dak has mucklucks..LOL You could start the Polar Bear shooting club.. KyleL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Over this last weekend the guys from Rock Mountain 3-gun put on a match for the IBPO in Pueblo Colorado. 5 great stages, and a team shoot. Two of these stages requiered HOT reholstering. We never once had any trouble or safety problems with the hot reholstering. The policemen that shoot this match ranged from first time match shooters to rather seasoned competitive shooters and one was "gasp" a lawyer! The only thing I did notice was that the guys that shot alot of competition always hesitated when going to reholster ( two actually cleared their pistols and then reholstered, one cleared and set his pistol down!??) The otheres always just put them away and kept on going saving precious time. The skill level of these people ran the whole gambit ( one woman had never shot a rifle or shotgun befor) and to say that we have to plan for the lowest common denominator in weapons transitions for safety sake, at least in this case, just wasn't a problem. Even the least trained among the group was very safe durring transitions!!! How did the Lawyer do you ask? Well with all duty gear, and complying with all the rules( some departments will allow just about anything, like Pueblo P.D. and some won't. I saw alot of gear on guys that I know thier department won't allow) and shooting major; the only real rifle in the match!!! He finished second by 2 points!!! He would have won but he had a pass through "no shoot" on one of the stages that scoring hadn't caught, and went to scoring and had it corrected himself!!!! Not bad for a guy that turns his shotgun over to load and shoots an iron sighted FAL! He also didn't mind the 105 degree heat and said it was much cooler than home, more like early May. Yep it was your very own forum moderator Kelly Neal, who by the way didn't hesitate to reholster! GOOD JOB!!!! Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-44978 Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 i need to move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I must admit to being a bit of a whimp on the reholstering issue. When trying to reholster at supermax speed I prefer to do it with a pistol that I've shot dry - unless I have to shoot it again. On both reholstering stages, I shot my pistol till empty and then stuffed it in. I'm not saying that reholstering isn't safe but I'll take an extra shot rather than fiddle w/ a safety. As for the scoring deal, I would not have really won. Mike Dowd WON the match because he shot better. I simply corrected a scoring error. But those Colorado coppers owe me a speeding ticket Kurt, I can't thank you enough for the bier. You're am nice guy for a weak handed San Fran shotgun loader. Finally, I may may technically be a "lawyer" but I prefer the title "Grand Persecutor of the Wicked" um I mean Deputy County Attorney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Kelly: I believe the true quote by "Ogre", was "that weak handed, fagotty, San Francisco loading". See I have true friend all accross the nation! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 The match went well despite me being the dumbass RO that missed the no-shoot and and called a hit on a flash target leading to a reshoot. I blame the previous days set-up in the heat and society for my errors. I did not see many people at all have any problems hot holstering. Not even a single person blinked at the thought either. I was amazed to see the variety of guns. Everything from STI high caps to Glock 19's. I was even more amazed to see the difficulty some had with 200 yard steel. Mike Dowd has been shooting better lately than I have ever seen him shoot. Pretty good for a national level PPC shooter. Next year we should have an egg shoot side match for the snipers in the crowd. If you think it was hot Saturday, it was even hotter for Sundays IPSC match. More record highs. Great.... Our new shipment of steel showed up Sunday also. Two weeks late, but at least it there now. It was great to meet you Kelly. Congrats on a job well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Now that's a class act! I just pointed to Kelly the no shoot that we (yea, me and the self-proclaimed D.A. Freeman) totally missed during scoring, didn't know that he went to have our mistake corrected. By the way, do you actually strap that thigh rig at the the office (ala "duty gear" of the modern day prosecutor?) No one forgot to engage the safety on their 1911-style weapons during hot reholstering. Some were overly cautious (by virtual of ingrained training) - look to the left, look to the right, holster. It was a fun match for all. Oh man, the prize table was rich!!! Even the leftovers for ROs were decent. Have to say that R. Wills did a great job of getting sponsors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Not that classy. I did not correct that. Eric forgot to input my OTHER traitorous no-shoot which made its way to to scorecard but not the computer. I just made sure he input it. I do not wear that rig to work, I had to borrow it from Steve Horseman. if I'd known what those Colorado boys called duty gear, I'd have shown up with my open guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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