Hard Primer Action Job

[David Sinko]

I know most of you will cringe at the very thought of this, but I want my two "new" 625-4s to be as smooth and light as possible and still fire Winchester and CCI primers 100%. The stock springs seem to be a bit on the heavy side even for CCI primers and one of the guns is a bit jumpy on the trigger return, though from the rub mark it appears the bottom of the trigger is dragging slightly on the sideplate. So what would be the best way to keep a "heavy" yet smooth action - shortening the strain screw or reducing the rebound spring, or would it have to be a combination of the two? I figure any roughness should eventually smooth out with extensive dry fire.

I took the Queen (625 SAC Mountain Gun) to a match the other day and She performed nicely. The only problem was a very fast flip-up no shoot target that I drilled dead center because I couldn't manage a quick pair fast enough with the heavy trigger and cold hands. So if I can lighten these just a bit and still have complete reliability with harder primers, I'd be just thrilled.

Any suggestions?

Oh, and once again I was the only revolver shooter at the match, but I'm learning to not care about that anymore.

Dave Sinko

[Viggen]

First step would be to take care of the roughness. Smoothness is the important part.

As to the spring question, do a search in the Revolver Forum. There are a couple of different approaches to replacement vs bending stock springs, etc. But the action itself has to be smooth.

[Bones]

"Oh, and once again I was the only revolver shooter at the match, but I'm learning to not care about that anymore."

I avoid messing with strain screws - there is no need and significant risk. You can do everything you need with judicious polishing and springs.

FYI, There were (3) of us at the Westfield USPSA match and a dozen of us at the Watervliet ICORE match this weekend. I shot Limited 10 at the USPSA match with a 627. The best I could do was finish 2nd in that division. Some guy with a southern accent named Todd Jarrett beat me. I beat him on one stage, but that was about it.

The next Watervliet ICORE match is Sunday 4 May. John Major puts on a great match and everyone there is very nice. I imagine we're about the same distance from Albany - about 1.5 hours. Please join us.

Craig

[Carmoney]

Dave, you can probably reduce the trigger weight somewhat and still have it go bang with CCI primers. But you'll have to proceed pretty carefully, because there is quite a bit of difference between CCIs and Federals in terms of ignition sensitivity.

Reducing the mainspring tension is done one (or more) of three ways: (1) shortening the strain screw, (2) altering the stock mainspring by bending, narrowing, or thinning, or (3) installation of aftermarket spring kits. On a full-out competition gun, I generally combine 1 and 2 by shortening the strain screw somewhat (but not enough to cause "knuckling"), then bending the leaf to the correct tension.

The rebound spring tension can be reduced also, by (1) clipping coils, or (2) installing an aftermarket spring. I always clip them, making sure to keep reduction in tension balanced with the reduction in mainspring tension. Otherwise, you can create sluggish rebound and embarrassing "double-clutches," and that's definitely not a good situation.

I've never found a spring kit that enabled me to dial in the exact combination of spring tensions the way I can by altering the stock springs. Every revolver is a little different, and there's a huge element of "feel" to tuning the springs.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Purchase a standard ribbed spring and a reduced power ribbed spring from Wolff. Add to that an assortment of rebound springs from 12 to 14#. Stone what you can then play with the springs until you get the right combo for your hands and guns. With the standard ribbed spring you may be able to work the strain screw also but make sure you have spares

[David Sinko]

I am reluctant to bend the mainspring because I have never done that before. Same with filing and stoning. I think the logical way to proceed would be to start by backing out the strain screw to determine when I start getting the light hits and/or the return becomes compromised. Just a little less length in the strain screw may produce satisfactory results, but I'll work on the rebound spring if necessary. Naturally I will keep the strain screw tight if it needs to be shortened. I have some spare factory and aftermarket springs and parts but it looks like I may need to get some more.

My next concern is the rub mark on the bottom of the trigger of the Mountain Gun. These are all stock parts and the gun is new and tight. It appears as though the bottom edge of the sideplate is touching the bottom of the trigger. Would it be necessary to lightly dress the sideplate or will this problem eventually take care of itself? I have heard that stoning and smoothing of parts is nothing more than "accelerated wear" anyway.

Since I no longer have the 627 the days of going out of my way to shoot ICORE are over. I will shoot local matches for "fun" only, likely with the 66. I have been slacking off and shooting the revolvers rather poorly these last two years and I feel I need to change that by shooting more USPSA.

Dave Sinko

[earplug]

I still shoot WW WLP's because there available. If you have a frame mounted firing pin, replace it with a longer after market pin from Randy Lee or Cylinder and Slide. This will allow a lighter mainspring.

I have the CS version, have been told the Randy Lee Firing pin allows dry firing.

[HighVelocity]

I've had good luck with the wolff reduced pwr mainspring and the 14# rebound spring. I also clip a couple of coils of of the cylinder latch return spring and polish the internal bearing surfaces. I don't shorten the strain screw.

My Carry gun (686+) has the above mentioned spring combo and sets off cci, win, etc. My Lyman trigger pull gauge says the DA pull is just under 8 lbs. Feels good to me too.

Gary

[Carmoney]

Since I no longer have the 627 the days of going out of my way to shoot ICORE are over. I will shoot local matches for "fun" only, likely with the 66.

Actually, Dave, a 625 works pretty well for ICORE. In fact, I shot my 625 at the IRC last year. You can either make some light ICORE loads, or just shoot your normal IPSC stuff, it probably won't make that much difference.

Anyway, you'll have fun shooting more USPSA. In my opinion, shooting USPSA matches with a revo is the ultimate shooting challenge.

[Carmoney]

I still shoot WW WLP's because there available. If you have a frame mounted firing pin, replace it with a longer after market pin from Randy Lee or Cylinder and Slide. This will allow a lighter mainspring.

I have the CS version, have been told the Randy Lee Firing pin allows dry firing.

Dave's guns don't have the frame mounted firing pin. But for the benefit of others here, I have been experimenting with Randy's firing pins recently, and have found that while they improve ignition over the current-production .485" +/- stock pin, Randy's pins do not create any ignition advantage over the original .495" +/- stock factory pin.

In my experience, the Cylinder & Slide pins are junk. They're roughly finished and many forum members have experienced breakage--in my case, three C&S pins broke in my guns before I quit using them. Randy's pins are extremely well-made, fit correctly, and I have no doubt they will last without breaking. However, I think the fact that Randy's pins are steel (i.e. heavier than the Ti factory pins) negates any length advantage.

I've laid in a small supply of the original length factory firing pins, and will keep using them until I can't find anymore.

[Carmoney]

also clip a couple of coils of of the cylinder latch return spring

You can actually remove the cylinder latch spring altogether, if you want. I often do this on competition guns. Not sure it makes a whole lot of difference....

[10mmdave]

In my experience, the Cylinder & Slide pins are junk. They're roughly finished and many forum members have experienced breakage--in my case, three C&S pins broke in my guns before I quit using them. Randy's pins are extremely well-made, fit correctly, and I have no doubt they will last without breaking. However, I think the fact that Randy's pins are steel (i.e. heavier than the Ti factory pins) negates any length advantage.

I've laid in a small supply of the original length factory firing pins, and will keep using them until I can't find anymore.

Must be a new season of Revo shooting

[Tom E]

I've laid in a small supply of the original length factory firing pins, and will keep using them until I can't find anymore.

?? The last one's I've bought have been .492+. Have they gone back to .485? I thought the "new" ones were the .495ish ones.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Tom E

[bountyhunter]

I know most of you will cringe at the very thought of this, but I want my two "new" 625-4s to be as smooth and light as possible and still fire Winchester and CCI primers 100%. The stock springs seem to be a bit on the heavy side even for CCI primers and one of the guns is a bit jumpy on the trigger return, though from the rub mark it appears the bottom of the trigger is dragging slightly on the sideplate. So what would be the best way to keep a "heavy" yet smooth action - shortening the strain screw or reducing the rebound spring, or would it have to be a combination of the two? I figure any roughness should eventually smooth out with extensive dry fire.

Don't mess up the strain screw. At the risk of uttering blasphemy, you can BEND the stock leaf mainspring and adjust the force to where you want it. use a "mandrel" bend like three screwdriver handles so the spring wraps around a curved face and it won't bend a sharp angle. Focus the bend zone about 2/3 of the way up from the bottom.

I have done it MANY times.

BTW, the rebound spring can also be dialed down by (GASP!) clipping a couple of coils off. The lighter you make the mainspring, the lighter you can make the RB spring and still get good trigger return.

Edited April 9, 2008 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

Any suggestions?

Oh, and once again I was the only revolver shooter at the match, but I'm learning to not care about that anymore.

Dave Sinko

An easy way to do it is:

Use the strain screw at a practice session to dial down the mainspring force by backing the screw out until you get misfires on DA pull. STOP SHOOTING, take the gun home and measure the trigger pull (record value). Increase that by about 20% for margin and bend the mainspring until you get that calculated value for trigger pull weight with the strain screw all the way in tight. Both the RB and mainspring affect pull weight, but this should get you close to ideal. using the DA pull weight gives a way to see how much you have increased the mainspring tension. If you get any misfires, just bend the spring a shade more to increase the pull weight a bit.

You can then dial down the RB spring by clipping it a bit if you want lighter pull, just make sure the trigger returns smartly.

Edited April 9, 2008 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

I've never found a spring kit that enabled me to dial in the exact combination of spring tensions the way I can by altering the stock springs. Every revolver is a little different, and there's a huge element of "feel" to tuning the springs.

Amen.

[Revopop]

use a "mandrel" bend like three screwdriver handles so the spring wraps around a curved face and it won't bend a sharp angle

I'm an optician, and this made me think of this tool. We use it to bend an eyewire (the part that holds the lens) around the lens. It's very easy to get the precise and consistent bend you want on an eyewire or a temple, might be $20 well spent for this application.

[David Sinko]

I found a bent stock mainspring I didn't even know I had and decided to try it with a Wolff 15 lb. rebound spring. The action was MUCH lighter and I didn't expect it to work with Winchester primers. To my astonishment it fired all of them except for one that was a bit high and it fired all six CCI that I grabbed on the way out. I could live happily ever after with even a bit more tension "just in case" to remove all doubt and have absolute reliability, so is it possible to bend the spring back in the other direction or would that be hopeless? I also found a Wolff full power mainspring with the rib; is it possible to bend one of those too or is it not a good idea with that rib?

It seems the stock springs really are way overkill. I didn't expect it to be that bad.

Dave Sinko

[Viggen]

If it works, why not just run with it for a while?

If it feels good to you and is reliable over the next several hundred rounds, don't change.

[Carmoney]

I could live happily ever after with even a bit more tension "just in case" to remove all doubt and have absolute reliability, so is it possible to bend the spring back in the other direction or would that be hopeless?

Sure--you can gently bend the spring either way. That's how you fine tune a mainspring.

Just don't underestimate the contribution that a truly good competition action job can make to your revolver shooting experience and performance.......after shooting a 5.5# DA trigger for a few years, I'd never willingly go back to what I once thought was a good action job.

[David Sinko]

I found what looks like a stock mainspring that has been reduced in thickness (not width) from the middle on up to the top. It does not look to be bent and appears to be normal except for the thinning. Is this an acceptable alternative to bending the spring? It appears to give me a little more tension than the bent spring, which would be what I want. I haven't tried it at the range yet so I don't know what to expect. I guess there are right ways and wrong ways to alter these flat springs. It appears you can alter thickness, width and bend and I have no idea which modification will deliver more whack to a primer for a given pull weight.

Dave Sinko

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I found what looks like a stock mainspring that has been reduced in thickness (not width) from the middle on up to the top. It does not look to be bent and appears to be normal except for the thinning. Is this an acceptable alternative to bending the spring? It appears to give me a little more tension than the bent spring, which would be what I want. I haven't tried it at the range yet so I don't know what to expect. I guess there are right ways and wrong ways to alter these flat springs. It appears you can alter thickness, width and bend and I have no idea which modification will deliver more whack to a primer for a given pull weight.

Dave Sinko

When I shot a lot of PPC, this was the way we did the springs. Very common. The problem many had was nuckling (feel of binding half way through the pull) if the spring was narrowed too much. Is it acceptable? If it works it is acceptable. I prefer bending or Wolff springs and have had better luck with them than the narrowed, stoned springs.

[Matt Griffin]

I found a bent stock mainspring I didn't even know I had and decided to try it with a Wolff 15 lb. rebound spring. The action was MUCH lighter and I didn't expect it to work with Winchester primers. To my astonishment it fired all of them except for one that was a bit high and it fired all six CCI that I grabbed on the way out. I could live happily ever after with even a bit more tension "just in case" to remove all doubt and have absolute reliability, so is it possible to bend the spring back in the other direction or would that be hopeless? I also found a Wolff full power mainspring with the rib; is it possible to bend one of those too or is it not a good idea with that rib?

It seems the stock springs really are way overkill. I didn't expect it to be that bad.

Dave Sinko

Just to confirm your findings, all I had were Winchester and CCI, and the CCIs worked 3/4 turn farther down (lighter) than the Winchester.

H.

[johes]

How warped do moonclips have to be to cause light hits? Do any of you have a way to check moonclips periodically or is this not an issue? Thanks

Joe

[bountyhunter]

I could live happily ever after with even a bit more tension "just in case" to remove all doubt and have absolute reliability, so is it possible to bend the spring back in the other direction or would that be hopeless? I also found a Wolff full power mainspring with the rib; is it possible to bend one of those too or is it not a good idea with that rib?

Bend away. You might want to trace the curve of the spring (side view) on a paper before you bend to see how much it changes as you bend it.