Expectations

[cztn]

Do expectations have a place in shooting or are expectations a manifestation of being closed minded?

The reason I bring this up is that in trying to learn to call a shot, I have been unable to move from shooting at the the berm to shooting at a target and seeing the same thing.

CZTN

[Chills1994]

Having been a human factors and ergonomics major in college, I really think you're onto something here.

It'll be interesting to see what the other folks (far better shooters than little ol' me) have to say about this.

[Jake Di Vita]

Expectations have absolutely no place in shooting. That's a result based focus rather than a process based focus. All we need to be concerning ourself with is finding the target, and holding the sights on the target till the bullet leaves the barrel over and over again.

Are you sure you don't have a flinch?

[G-ManBart]

I think it depends on the specific type of expectations you're talking about.

If you expect to see something, I'd bet it won't happen.

If you expect to do poorly because you haven't practiced enough lately, you're front sight isn't the size you like, your ammo is 2pf higher than you'd prefer, your favorite sunglasses got broken, etc....then yeah, you'll probably meet your expectations.

On the other hand, I think you can expect something like "I'll keep a positive attitude all match no matter what happens" and you'll probably do it if you're committed to it.

[AlamoShooter]

That word is a heavy load to carry in any thing that includes _joy as an out come. The weight of the word will flatten Joy into a disappointing puddle.

It has taken me years to shed the burden of letting Expectations creep on to my back.

Edited March 25, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[Bigbadaboom]

I believe that evolving expectations are O.K. as long as they do not become stagnant. I see expectations the same as goals. Once you've reached a goal/expectation then it's time to raise the bar and set new goals/expectations.

[Catfish]

Expectations have absolutely no place in shooting. That's a result based focus rather than a process based focus. All we need to be concerning ourself with is finding the target, and holding the sights on the target till the bullet leaves the barrel over and over again.

Yep. Expectations - lose 'em.

[Sam]

I totally agree with Jake. Expectations won't help you to see. They will blind you.

I'm not being cryptic about this. If you are looking for something that you have never seen before, on what basis do you suppose you will form an accurate expectation? I have to wonder if the target, more to the point, the judgement that the placement of the holes in the target will bring, is the reason you can't see. I have struggled with the very same issue.

Keep shooting. Keep seeing. What you need to see is right in front of you. You can recognize it easily enough when there is no specific target (shooting the berm). You are having difficulty recognizing it when there is a specific target. Are you worried about the outcome of where the holes appear in the target? Expectations creep in like a viral infection. Keep your inner state healthy by remaining focused on the shooting and not fast forwarding to the outcome of the shooting.

Outcomes occur in the future. But, the future never comes. Logically, only the present moment can exist.

[Chills1994]

Sam wrote:

Logically, only the present moment can exist.

Well, by the time that we perceive the present as the present it's already the past. LOL!

I think our OP here is speaking about expectancy in a different term than the majority of folks are taking it here.

For example:

I say:

SILK!

SILK!

SILK!

What do cows drink?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Did you say "milk, milk, milk" to yourself?

Here is a link to heuristics and biases:

Wiki's Cognitive Wrenches Thrown Into the Works

[Chills1994]

After we have fired so many odd thousands of rounds, we are conditioned to expect certain things.

We expect the gun to go into battery.

We expect the trigger to move under the force of our index fingers.

We expect to feel a slight click.

We expect to see the hammer go forward (well, on some guns anyway.... )

We expect there to be a BANG!.

We expect that there will be some recoil transferred to our hands, into our arms, and then into our shoulders.

We expect that the slide will move rearward.

We expect that the empty shell casing will get ejected.

We expect that the gun will strip the next round properly.

Rinse, repeat, as often as necessary.

I bet someone here more versed in Lanny Basham's self-talk could do a more adequate job of connecting expectancy on a larger scale or view to self-talk.

[Jake Di Vita]

Listen to Sam...he is way better with words than I am.

Chills,

You are exactly right...which also brings to point the exact reason why conscious thought is a big no no during a stage. As long as you are operating strictly on your awareness (and registering the input from all of your senses at once), you will always be shooting in the present. The only time you stop being in the present is when you start thinking about it.

Once you are out of the present you are relying on your conscious mind to control your activity, which is going to be horrible for you since the conscious mind can only handle one thing at a time.

[Chills1994]

That's where the sports psychologists come in and say you have to build up muscle memory.

The last book I read on that subject said oh.... only about 3,500 repetitions should get you to a "mastery" level of proficiency.

I'm sure all sorts of discussions on "being in the zone" have already been hashed out on this forum.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that expectations or expectancy will cause you NOT to see some things.

We've probably all experienced it and probably get a chuckle out of it when a newbie's gun jams, but the newbie keeps on pressing on the trigger until he's like "What the...?"

I'm sure we have seen the newbies drive that gun down about 4 inches too, because they were expecting a BANG!

Oh yeah, I agree with you all here. That if you have to think shooting you're not gonna do so well.

My comment about the present was actually a wise crack about that whole space-time continuim thing in kind of a physics Albert Einstein kinda way. NOT a psychology kinda way.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Chills1994

[JimmyZip]

Just something quick from this newbie,

If I try to see anything when I am shooting, I get all funny and can't do ANYTHING!

If I visualize BEFORE and just let it go when the buzzer starts, I see ALL KINDS OF THINGS!

I've just noticed this in the last couple of outings to the range. I do not know where this is leading me up to this point but what I do know is that I will continue to do this visualization thing to see better as I find myself able.

( I hope this makes sense to somebody else)

I now retire to the garage to dryfire, Goodnight!

P.S. General Chang, Thanks for the timer, can't wait till it gets hear and I can give my buddy his back. ( Hint: Never let JimmyZip borrow your socket set, your mower, or your timer. You'd be sorry.)

[j1b]

What do you define as expectations?

I'd like to tactfully disagree with the panel - I do have expecations. Every time I pull that trigger.

I expect to perform at my highest level. I expect to see at my highest level. I expect to hit every damn shot I fire. And I expect to win.

Frequently my expectations are not met, and personally I have to hold myself accountable to that. But I believe this game is as much about the present as it is about the future. Yes, I expect to be better this time than I was last time. Otherwise why measure? I do not however believe this game lives in the past . . .

To expect to do something when you know you can't is one thing. That's foolish. To expect yourself to do to what you know you can do, that's accountability. And yes, I gladly accept that challenge. And, I hold myself accountable to it.

We are so frequently afraid of being what we can be. That's expectations. Unmet. There's nothing more rewarding than challenging myself to being something bigger (better?) than I can be, and exceeding that expectation. After all, isn't that what this is all about?

J

[grandbagger]

I expect to perform at my highest level. I expect to see at my highest level. I expect to hit every damn shot I fire. And I expect to win.

this is what i expect too IF i do my part....

[MacCearain]

I'm new to the boards and new to shooting as well -- Fired a pistol for the first time in January... So my shooting experience is limited, but...

I tend to agree with Jake and Sam on the general role of expectations during the aquisition of skills and applied to attempts to artificially control senses like sight...

I tend to agree with j1b on the role of expectations appied to "mastered" skills...

I can't call my shot consistently yet, either. But there have been more and more sparks of -- I know that was dead center -- I know that was low... I know that was right.... and when I look it's exactly where my mind told me it went.... but like you, if I try to focus on calling the shot -- I definitely can't on the very next shot... I can't consciously control every detail of my seeing... So for me... I don't set my expectation to calling an individual shot... but I do set an expectation that I should see it more and more over the upcoming weeks... If I don't see the skill continue to develop, then (like you) I'd ask for help...

If I were accustomed to "knowing" where each shot went without the need to look, then I'd expect to "know" on every shot... just as I'd expect the gun to cycle and the brass to discharge... for me this is a secondary skill for my "shooting" maturity... I'm more focused on getting the bullet delivered accurately, than on if I could follow it or call it.... I think the pressure of competitive shooting would make this skill more critical to improve total points per second -- I totally see calling shots being an awesome skill...

If you can "call the shot" into the berm consistently.... maybe try big paper / cardboard targets with no markings...

For me, it happens more at the end of my range time than at the beginning... maybe I'm too wound up at the start...

Hopefully something helpful,

Paul

[spook]

Do expectations have a place in shooting or are expectations a manifestation of being closed minded?

The reason I bring this up is that in trying to learn to call a shot, I have been unable to move from shooting at the the berm to shooting at a target and seeing the same thing.

CZTN

Moving from shooting at the berm to shooting at the target is a big thing.

When shooting at the berm, you can stay with the sights all the way. It doesnnot matter at which part of the berm you shoot. With the target, you want all the shots to be in the middle (or, slighly above the middle )

You say you have been unable to move form berm to target. In which way have you been unable?

About expectations: can you tell us what you exactly mean by expectations?

[cztn]

Jake and Sam:

Thanks for the reply. It was just what I needed to hear.

Spook,

Expectations is anticipating that something will happen.

I started out trying to learn to call a shot 6 weeks ago. This was the sole purpose of my weekly live fire sessions. For the first 3 weeks I shot 150 to 200 rounds into the berm doing nothing but looking at the front site. I found that in trying to do it slowly that I only saw the sight return but if I shot a little fast that I could see the sight leave as well as return. So in the 4th week I thought I would try incorporating a target into the practice. I set up the target at 25 yards so that I needed my a spotting scope to see the holes. I started with the berm then tried the target marking an extra target as I went. The results were that I had correctly marked about 30%. This to me falls more into the I guessed right category not the I called the shot category. So to make a log story short I went back to the berm for the 5th session. The sixth session I tried with the target and the same results as the 4th session.

I think I am going to take the suggestion of try a bigger piece of blank paper and take small steps in narrowing down to a smaller target.

CZTN

[Paladin]

life (and shooting is therefore included) is all about expectations.. the challenge is what are your expectations as this will determine whether you close yourself to valuable inputs or not, so as to allow you to adjust your expectations...what you don't want is anticipation because this brings anxiety, stress and distractions..

I keep seing this results-oriented vs. process-oriented but rather they are all part of a performance cycle..if your sub-conscious is not aware of progress (from results- you programme into your sub-c what is an appropriate result) you will not shoot efficiently or effectively..

[Flexmoney]

Lanny says to figure out how to shoot a ten, then do that again.

...

I wouldn't worry about marking the target and calling the shot on 25y paper yet. Just make the goal the same as when shooting into the berm...to see.

[benos]

I totally agree with Jake. Expectations won't help you to see. They will blind you.

I'm not being cryptic about this. If you are looking for something that you have never seen before, on what basis do you suppose you will form an accurate expectation? I have to wonder if the target, more to the point, the judgement that the placement of the holes in the target will bring, is the reason you can't see. I have struggled with the very same issue.

Keep shooting. Keep seeing. What you need to see is right in front of you. You can recognize it easily enough when there is no specific target (shooting the berm). You are having difficulty recognizing it when there is a specific target. Are you worried about the outcome of where the holes appear in the target? Expectations creep in like a viral infection. Keep your inner state healthy by remaining focused on the shooting and not fast forwarding to the outcome of the shooting.

Outcomes occur in the future. But, the future never comes. Logically, only the present moment can exist.

Killer post Sam.

be

Experiment with this for a while. Before you shoot each string, consciously ask yourself - what will I see on this string? Keep repeating the same string of fire, and be sure to ask yourself that question before each string. Trying to see any certain thing may prevent you from seeing it.

be

[Ron Ankeny]

I expect to perform at my highest level. I expect to see at my highest level. I expect to hit every damn shot I fire. And I expect to win.

I like that...a lot.

To expect yourself to do to what you know you can do, that's accountability.

Some personality types would flounder and die if they didn't hold true to that line of thinking... Edited March 26, 2008 by Ron Ankeny

[cztn]

Thanks all for the advice. I will put it to good use at the range next day off.

CZTN