ErikW Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 At Saturday's USPSA match one of the stage designers had a great idea of doing both the IDPA and USPSA forms of El Presidente. He was inspired by Ken Hackathorn's sidebar in the recent issue of American Handgunner, which bashed the USPSA El Prez as blasphemous and praised the IDPA flavor as the One True El Presidente, faithful to Jeff Cooper's original design. The main difference is the targets are widely spaced in the IDPA flavor (~3 yards?) and more closely spaced (~1 yard) in the USPSA flavor. The CRO read from Hackathorn's piece and, figuratively, ripped it to shreds. It was hilarious; it really made Hackathorn seem ignorant and pompous. (He bashed the USPSA El Prez for being a Comstock hoser when in fact it is Virginia Count.) Anyway, the CRO kept the IDPA El Prez's start position with only six rounds loaded in the gun. (They do this to force a slide-lock reload.) That didn't sit well with me, as I came to shoot under USPSA rules, which don't limit capacity in the Limited division, and brought my Limited-legal blaster that will not lock open when empty. In fact, the slide hangs up on the follower when empty and the magazine becomes difficult to remove, causing reloads to take 5-10 seconds. I was miffed for a while, until I came up with a devious plan. At load and make ready, I chambered the first round, then unseated the 5-round magazine. At the beep, my weak hand went for a fresh mag while the 5-rounder dropped during the draw. I reloaded before the first shot, took the six, then did a USPSA speed reload for the mandated reload, and finished up with the next six, for an eight-second run. Confusion ensued. The RO was talking about giving me a procedural but his heart wasn't in it. I did the mandatory reload after engaging T1-T3 with only two rounds each, as specified. It didn't say you couldn't reload before or after that, or at any other time. Then the buzz was to give me a Failure To Do Right penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 You're a very naughty boy! I'm amused when people like Hackathorn bash USPSA and praise IDPA because it's allegedly "what IPSC was in the old days." Methinks these guys have faulty or selective memories because IDPA does not resemble IPSC in the "old days" (from stories I've heard) any more than USPSA does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Creative problem solving Erik, You followed the rules and hit the targets, whats wrong with that? Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 I shot IPSC in the OLD DAYS, and IDPA isn't even close to what IPSC was. At least from 1978 thru 1986 when I stopped shooting it. IPSC in the old days was an empowering thing. It taught you to analyze the stage, be creative, and shoot free style. There was no FTDR if you found a better mouse trap as you walked to the line; and you did not have some pompous blowhard bashing other types of shooting just because he had a forum in some gun rag (no offense ment Duane). It sickens me, all the cheap shots people take at someone else's sport. If you don't like it, don't shoot it; but don't just bad mouth it on general principle or because you suddenly get diarrhea of the mouth. I certainly wouldn't have achieved the very small modicum of success I had in IDPA without all those years shooting through the IPSC WARS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Erik: Did you draw from concealment with carry gear in the proper position, lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironman Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Way to go Eric! Good story thanks for sharing it with us. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 I shot IPSC in the OLD DAYS, and IDPA isn't even close to what IPSC was. At least from 1978 thru 1986 when I stopped shooting it. IPSC in the old days was an empowering thing. It taught you to analyze the stage, be creative, and shoot free style. There was no FTDR if you found a better mouse trap as you walked to the line; and you did not have some pompous blowhard bashing other types of shooting just because he had a forum in some gun rag (no offense ment Duane). It sickens me, all the cheap shots people take at someone else's sport. If you don't like it, don't shoot it; but don't just bad mouth it on general principle or because you suddenly get diarrhea of the mouth. I certainly wouldn't have achieved the very small modicum of success I had in IDPA without all those years shooting through the IPSC WARS. That's my understanding. My brother shot in the early 1980s through about 1990, then started again with me in 1995. What he and his "old timer" buddies tell me about IPSC before USPSA (and after) bears little resemblance to IDPA. IDPA is a different and fun game, but their rules are the epitome of "arbitrary and capricious." As long as everyone knows 'em ahead of time and agrees to shoot, that fine and dandy. But it still makes me wonder when people say IDPA is like "it used to be." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Very Tactical Impressive I renew your membership in our elite gamers club for another year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 LOL! I wish I could have been there to see that. I do have to point out - at the risk of being excruciating pedantic - that the RO could have given you a procedural penalty had he been up on the IDPA Rule Book which states: String 3 Position #2 (Load 6 rounds MAX. in pistol) Start back to targets, turn and fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3, reload from slidelock and fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3. 12shots So by not firing to slidelock you would have earned a procedural. Still, I would have loved to see the looks on the faces of viewers on that stage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Erik, I was in the squad with you this saturday and yes we all enjoyed it immensely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 What if instead of "unseating" it you just hit the mag release in the draw? Will a procedural be applied in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I was lucky and had a mag with a standard follower that would lock the slide back. So I just followed the course description and loaded the mag with six. Sure enough the slide locked back so I reloaded and finished the string. I was down 9 points in 7.63 seconds. With IDPA scoring that's what 37 seconds? Erik had a miss in 7 something seconds which translates to 804 seconds in IDPA scoring. We almost shot from congealed, er concealed cover it was so cold and foggy. Of course for string 2, the IPSC El Prez I forgot to unlock my Limcat holster and gave myself a nice wedgie. At least that took my mind off the cold. I was on the scoreboard for Erik's run and kept trying to give him the "Dudley" (as in DoRight) penalty just because he thought of it before I did. We eventually (about 4 seconds) decided "Hey this is IPSC, you're supposed to cheat, er be creative." As for being illegal, I thought it was OK to specify the condition of the gun for the start position. Lots of stage specify gun unloaded, so what's the difference with a specific number of rounds in the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 28, 2003 Author Share Posted May 28, 2003 Duane, remember, it was the IDPA course description under the USPSA rulebook. I don't recall it saying "Reload from slide lock but I can assure you my slide and barrel were fully locked up in battery when I did both my reloads. Nolan, Miss my ass. I was Tactical and neutralized all the threats on the IPDA El Prez string. It wasn't until the USPSA El Prez string that my fingers fully froze and I got two Misses. (Because that's what we're supposed to do, right, Miss fast like Hackathorn says?) But I suppose you could ding me for not doing a sweep-my-feet "threat scan" after the last shot before unloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 What if instead of "unseating" it you just hit the mag release in the draw? Will a procedural be applied in this case? Yep. He still wouldn't have shot the gun to slidelock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Nolan, Miss my ass. Oops my bad! I thought you had a miss on each. I was too busy trying to undo my wedgie. And No I don't miss your ass!?!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 What does the USPSA rulebook say about making a mandatory reload from slidelock? If I wanna shoot IDPA, I wait until we have a match, USPSA matches should be just that, USPSA matches, not mirror images of IDPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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