Leading with Laser Cast- what the heck?

[Cherryriver]

If I had a nickel for all of the forum posts I've ever read extolling the non-leading tendencies of the Oregon Trail Laser-Cast bullets, I'd be, well, able to afford any kind of bullets at all.

I used to cast my own thirty years ago, and indeed have resurrected my old Lee molds and furnace to combat the skyrocketing cost of bullets, but those are all big bore sizes, no middle bores. I know what to expect with those, and using wheelweights and Lee Lube, I get just a little leading in breech end of the barrel and live with it.

I'll normally be shooting plated bullets in .38, .45, and 9mm, but seeing Cabelas' sale on the L-Casts, with 158gr round-nose-flat-points going for a little less than a nickel apiece, I ordered a thousand.

After putting up some mid- to- upper-range loads with Winchester Super-Target, 3.5 to 3.8 grains, each trip to the range resulted in extended sessions with my (now also-resurrected) Lewis Lead Remover.

A Python, two different .357 Models, and an Official Police all had great gobs of metal slobbered all up the barrels and forcing cones. It's a wonder the last of the hundred rounds of each session got all the way to the backstop.

They also all had bright silver spatter stuck fast to the fronts of the cylinders, resistant to the brass brush that usually cleans them all right up after a diet of Berry's.

Okay, it's my fault, but what's wrong here?

Bill

[P.E. Kelley]

It is possible that the bullets are harder than the initial pressure curve of your loads

ability to properly upset the bullet enough to (Obturate) fill the bore.

This allows propulsive gases to bypass the projectile stripping lead from the bullet

and depositing it in bore.

These bullets are TOO good! OR Just better suited to high pressure loads.

Just me thinking.

Patrick

[Cherryriver]

Actually, now that I think about it, the first hundred of these I put up were with Vihta Vuori 320, which happened to be in the hopper since it's my standard full-power .38 powder.

I think I backed down from the plated-bullet book max of 4.8gr to 4.3gr, still decent for a lead bullet.

Not only did those lead up just as badly, but the accuracy was so bad, even I noticed.

That's why I went back to good ol' WST.

The 3.8gr of WST is fairly stiff too, according to Winchester.

I really couldn't convince myself it was the lightness of the loads, after those two.

Maybe I put 'em in the case sideways, I don't know.

Bill

[P.E. Kelley]

Understand you are still working at 38 Special pressures. Just for the heck of it, so you don't have to load the bullets

sideways in frustration, try some 357 magnum data in the Python. A safe load that will get you over 1,000 fps.

You may want to check the cylinder exit hole diameter. If it is smaller that the lead bullet it will be

that size as it enters the bore making the problem worse.

You could call the folks at Laser Cast, maybe they can help?

Good luck

Patrick

[mwx40x40]

Mic the bullets, they may be undersized. I purchased a thousand 44 swc from Oregon Trial a fews year ago and the same thing. Barrel leading and poor accuracy. They advertised .430 and measured out .428. Called OT and they confirmed they had some undersized get out. Not what I expect from a premium cast bullet.

[Cherryriver]

Ooh, didn't think of measuring them.

My none-too-expensive Lyman calipers think they're .3585, which, based on past experience, means they're just shy of .358. That shouldn't be too small for Colt bores- these are older guns from the '50s, and while I haven't slugged them, most folks think these guns had barrels on the tight side.

And we're talking about four different guns.

Bill

[Jack Suber]

Oregon Trail Bullets are hard (I seem to recall them advertising a Brinell hardness of 20?). Therefore, it requires more pressure to make them obturate and seal the barrel. If this pressure threshhold is not met, you get gas blow-by, in which the bulletand lube are melted at the sides. The key is to determine where the leading is occuring. If the leading is occuring at the throat of the barrel, the bullet is too hard for the load you are using (the fix - speed it up). If the leading is occuring further down the barrel toward the muzzle, then you are exceeding the "normal" velocites for that alloy (the fix - slow it down).

[revchuck]

I'm with the "use .357 Mag data" crowd. A nice .357 Mag Major load is 6.8 grains of Unique under a 158 grain lead bullet - makes about 1100 fps +/- from a 4" gun, and leads very little if at all with commercial hardcast bullets.

If it's leading at the forcing cone, the pressure's too low. I bet you probably used wheelweights like I did when you used to cast, and had no problems at .38 Special to low-.357 Mag levels. Harder bullets need more pressure to avoid leading.

If you want to shoot at .38 Special levels, try swaged bullets. Hornady, Speer and Zero swaged lead bullets work great at up to 850 fps from a 4" barrel.

[Cherryriver]

Message received- Laser Casts aren't suitable for .38 Special, unless I get a big shovelful of 2400 crammed behind 'em.

Bill

[bompa]

Are the bullets in question bevel based ?? I have found that the BB bullets have a tendency to lead more than a flat base bullet..Not sure why but that is what it seems to me..

[ernierod1]

Although BB bullets do load a little easier,it is believed they are not quite as accurate as Flat Base bullets. BB bullets,some feel,allows a little gas blowby to occur and there by deposit some lead paricles from blowby process onto the land and grooves of rifling before obturation can seal the bore.

[DEADEYE]

Your not moving them fast enough, push them harder over some 2400 or 4227.

[rhyrlik]

You do not need any pressure to get a .358 bullet to seal a .356" bore, as is the case with the Python.

I think you are not driving the bullets fast enough to melt the lube. No lube in the bore means leading.

[bompa]

I must say that I am not to happy with the hard,heat applied,lube that everybody seems to favor today..Yes it is not so messy and easier to handle and most bullets have a nice clean look about them..But in my mind it is not as efficient as the older soft lubes..Back in the day there was only that black stuff from Lyman and it did work well,but messy.then someone brought out the Alox mix and things got much better,hard to do though..Still messy and sticky it worked like a charm..Really had to work at it to get a barrel leaded up..If I was able to specify what lube is used in the bullets I buy today that is what I would order still ..

Just a thought I wonder if it is possible to buy un sized and lubed cast bulets..Still have that old Lyman #45 sizer, somebody must still sell an Alox lube..

[Jack Suber]

The harder lube has a specific purpose and was designed for harder bullets to be pushed at higher velocities. I believe Oregon Trail is using Thompson's Bullet Lube for their bullets - that is what I used when I used to manufacture bullets. Thompson's smokes less than other brands (believe it or not). It sticks to the bullet better, melts at a higher temp, and does not gunk up your seating die as fast as normal lubes do. It is a beeswax based lube and is very consistent. It is great stuff.

Commercial casters like the harder lubes also because when bullets are packaged in bulk, you do not have to worry about the lube sticking to other bullets and getting pulled out of the lube ring when the bullets are piled in a box. One trick that Bull-X taught me was to use cooking grade silicon spray on the bullets after lubing/siziing to keep the lube from sticking to other bullets. Works great and also slows the build-up of lube in your seating die. Also, if you are shooting these bullets in autos, you don't want soft lube all over the bullets as it will also gunk up your pistol faster.

Again, the leading problem is a result of too hard of a bullet being pushed too slowly.

[rhyrlik]

Can you explain why a properly sized bullet that is too hard leads-up the bore when the velocity is too low?

[Jack Suber]

Can you explain why a properly sized bullet that is too hard leads-up the bore when the velocity is too low?

I gave a brief explanation in post 7. If the bullet will not expand to completely fill the barrel at the throat, gas will blow by and burn the bullet from the side - resulting in leading at the throat. A hard bullet requires higher pressures to expand the bullet rapidly in order to prevent this. A softer bullet can handle this fine at lower pressures. However, if you start pushing softer bullets too fast, they will start melting (regardless of the lube) and you will see leading at the end of the barrel. That is why for real powder puff loads (i.e. the bullseye .38 special load with 148 grn double edge wadcutter), casters used a very soft swaged bullet (not cast). It does fine with the very light loads of Bullseye powder. The lead is a very soft and plyable lead that is actually lead in a coil punched through a sizer. Hope this helps.

Oh - one other thing - a properly sized bullet does not mean that it is exactly the diameter of the barrel. You have to take into account the rifling sits higher than the rest of the barrel. If you sized the bullet to be exactly the diameter of the barrel and not the rifling, you would have very high pressures and your rifling would not last long.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Jack Suber

[rhyrlik]

Can you explain why a properly sized bullet that is too hard leads-up the bore when the velocity is too low?

I gave a brief explanation in post 7. If the bullet will not expand to completely fill the barrel at the throat, gas will blow by and burn the bullet from the side - resulting in leading at the throat. A hard bullet requires higher pressures to expand the bullet rapidly in order to prevent this. A softer bullet can handle this fine at lower pressures. However, if you start pushing softer bullets too fast, they will start melting (regardless of the lube) and you will see leading at the end of the barrel. That is why for real powder puff loads (i.e. the bullseye .38 special load with 148 grn double edge wadcutter), casters used a very soft swaged bullet (not cast). It does fine with the very light loads of Bullseye powder. The lead is a very soft and plyable lead that is actually lead in a coil punched through a sizer. Hope this helps.

Oh - one other thing - a properly sized bullet does not mean that it is exactly the diameter of the barrel. You have to take into account the rifling sits higher than the rest of the barrel. If you sized the bullet to be exactly the diameter of the barrel and not the rifling, you would have very high pressures and your rifling would not last long.

But in the the OP's case, the Lazercast bullet does fit the throat correctly and does not need to expand to seal it. Colts Pythons have .358-.3585" throat diameters. That is exactly what his bullets miked.

[Jack Suber]

Can you explain why a properly sized bullet that is too hard leads-up the bore when the velocity is too low?

I gave a brief explanation in post 7. If the bullet will not expand to completely fill the barrel at the throat, gas will blow by and burn the bullet from the side - resulting in leading at the throat. A hard bullet requires higher pressures to expand the bullet rapidly in order to prevent this. A softer bullet can handle this fine at lower pressures. However, if you start pushing softer bullets too fast, they will start melting (regardless of the lube) and you will see leading at the end of the barrel. That is why for real powder puff loads (i.e. the bullseye .38 special load with 148 grn double edge wadcutter), casters used a very soft swaged bullet (not cast). It does fine with the very light loads of Bullseye powder. The lead is a very soft and plyable lead that is actually lead in a coil punched through a sizer. Hope this helps.

Oh - one other thing - a properly sized bullet does not mean that it is exactly the diameter of the barrel. You have to take into account the rifling sits higher than the rest of the barrel. If you sized the bullet to be exactly the diameter of the barrel and not the rifling, you would have very high pressures and your rifling would not last long.

But in the the OP's case, the Lazercast bullet does fit the throat correctly and does not need to expand to seal it. Colts Pythons have .358-.3585" throat diameters. That is exactly what his bullets miked.

Yes, but what does the distance from riffling (land) on one side of the barrel mic to the riffling (land) on the other side? I think that will be the same measurement as the diameter of the throat. Remember, the throat does not have riffling. Therefore, the bullet will have to expand to fill the groves in between the lands.

[wide45]

Yes, but what does the distance from riffling (land) on one side of the barrel mic to the riffling (land) on the other side? I think that will be the same measurement as the diameter of the throat. Remember, the throat does not have riffling. Therefore, the bullet will have to expand to fill the groves in between the lands.

No, not if I understand what you are saying.

Properly sized cylinder throats match up with groove diameter, not land diameter. Bullets do not have to size up to fill the grooves. If that were true, you would never get jacketed bullets to engage the rifling.

Edited February 22, 2008 by wide45

[Jack Suber]

Yes, but what does the distance from riffling (land) on one side of the barrel mic to the riffling (land) on the other side? I think that will be the same measurement as the diameter of the throat. Remember, the throat does not have riffling. Therefore, the bullet will have to expand to fill the groves in between the lands.

No, not if I understand what you are saying.

Properly sized cylinder throats match up with groove diameter, not land diameter. Bullets do not have to size up to fill the grooves. If that were true, you would never get jacketed bullets to engage the rifling.

No, the other way around - the land diameter. Now I think I am confusing myself. Trust me. All bullets have to expand ever-so-slightly in order to seal the barrel.

[rhyrlik]

I still think this is a lube issue. I suggest the OP get some Lee Alox, dip the bullets, load them as before, and I bet he won't see any leading.

[Cherryriver]

Rhyrlik-

It's funny, but that's exactly what I was thinking of trying, since I still have seven or eight hundred of the things to get rid of. I figured it couldn't hurt.

I did put up a hundred at midrange .357 levels and will take them to the club range today.

But I wasn't looking for a .357 bullet; I was looking for a .38 practice bullet that was less than the Berry's I'd usually use in IDPA, or, rarely, USPSA.

We shall see, but I know I'm pulling the hundred or so I have loaded up with WST.

Thanks all.

Bill

[Bill H]

I recently purchased some of the Laser Cast bullets in the .45 caliber 200 grain for my 1911. I only shot 16 rounds and when I checked the barrel it was leaded the 1st inch of rifling. I used a load of VV N310 at 860 fps. What do you do in a case like that? Switch powders?

[rhyrlik]

I guess...

They do not lead in my 1911. I tried them with Bullseye and Red Dot.