1050 Consistency

[Alan550]

How does OAL consistency on a Dillon 1050 stack up against the 550-B & 650?  The 550 I have varies as much as .005.   A friend is considering a 1050 to replace his 650 which varies a bit too, and posed the question, so I thought I'd ask here.  How 'bout it guys ( and ladies) ?

[EricW]

Not that I want to begrudge Brian or Dillon out of selling a 1050, but:

1.  Is this "problem" actually manifesting itself in accuracy?  I have a tough time believing that it is given just my personal experience with a 550, Dillon Dies, and my rifles.  I've fretted over minor OAL variations before, but have yet to see any issues in practical accuracy.  If you're doing benchrest competition, your mileage may vary.  For everything else, I think you're worrying too much.

2.  If it is genuinely a problem, why not try less expensive measures? i.e. making sure things are tight, using a Redding seating die, and tapping the toolhead locking pin holes so that it can be screwed in tightly to the frame.

[Alan550]

"1.  Is this "problem" actually manifesting itself in accuracy?"

Yes!  I'm talking a pistol that does under a half-inch @ 50 yds. and OAL differences have thrown the SD from a 10 to about 30 when compared to loads that were seated separately in a single-stage after the mass-loading process on a progressive.  So there is a huge difference in accuracy also, going up to an inch and a quarter from the previous accuracy above.  

  I realize the 1050 is a bunch faster, but if we have to do final seating on another press, it's not worth the expense to go to the 1050.

  Thanks for the idea on the toolhead locking pins though!  That's a great idea I hadn't thought of.

[Loves2Shoot]

This is an IPSC shooting forum isn't it? Not to be a smart ass, but if your load is holding 1.25" at 50" that is way better than you need. I get 2" groups at 17 yards with my 1050 loaded ammo standing/freestyle and my ammo chronos within 20 fps with new components. I can't see you would benefit from more accurate ammo than that.

Maybe you time isn't worth much, but with the time it takes to reload 1000 round on a SS press and 1050 (less than 1 hour), I have lots of time to do other stuff.

[spook]

Why don't you load your practice ammo on the Dillon and the foo foo match ammo on a single stage? It will still save you time and you get the most accurate shots when you need it.

[EricW]

From 1/2" to 1 1/2" Groups at 50 yards?

1 1/2" groups are jim dandy for our sport, but if that accuracy change is consistent and for real, I'm guessing that there is fundamental issue with the setup or operation of your 550.  Dillon's presses are designed to self-align the cartridges with the die at each station.  On a properly set up press, the cartridge shouldn't "know" that's in a Dillon or a single stage.  My guess is that something is going on that's causing that to not happen.  Or, one of your dies is so far out of axis with the others as to be tweaking the case.  

Have you tried swapping toolheads?  It might be as simple as an improperly tapped toolhead.

Using the correct shellplate and buttons?  The cases should *not* be in the shell plate tightly.  There needs to be a small amount of play in order allow them to self-align to the die.  Also, try lubricating the shell platform with a dry lubricant to allow the cases to slide more freely.  

When I'm going for extreme accuracy, I really slow down the operation of the press.  I make sure that I move very slowly and smoothly.  It helps produce a more consistent round.  I might turn out 200 rounds an hour max at that pace.  

(Edited by EricW at 2:01 pm on Feb. 18, 2003)

[Loves2Shoot]

Foo foo match ammo, ROFL!!!

My 2 cents, for what it's worth. Get the 1050, use the hours and hours and hours of time you will save reloading and practice during this time. This will increase your shooting accuracy more than the foo foo ammo will.

[Alan550]

Thanks for the input guys, but it seems I've posed the question on the WRONG board.  I was under the impression that this forum was for other sports as well as IPSC, and since I'm a lowly NRA Action shooter, I've come to the wrong place.  My concern was, and is, inconsistencies in OAL, but it's been turned into another topic altogether.

[kimel]

Are you using the same dies in both the progressive and the single stage?  Not same make/model but the same dies?

This could all be a die thing.  FWIW...my single stage loaded 40 ammo (RCBS dies) with the exact same load has twice the standard deviation over the chrono as the loads over the Dillon (SDB with its own die set of course).

Just a thought.

[Loves2Shoot]

Alan,

If you are offended by the comments, I think you are taking them wrong. I know nothing about NRA Action shooting, but if you need a gun that shoots groups less than 1.5" it must be like bench rest shooting with a handgun. I know that the Marines use Dillion progressive presses to load both match grade pistol and rifle ammo. My loads with my 1050 are extremely consistant over the chrono.

[Flexmoney]

Alan550,

Stick with it.  Our host has been known to pull the trigger in Bianchi Cup and PPC.  Lots of the guys here shoot other sports besides IPSC.  

I have never tried for the consistency in OAL that you are seeking, but maybe I can throw out a few things that I have picked up.

-  The more stable the bench, the more uniform the load.  The bench is never "too stable".

-  Smooth stroke.  

-  Hornady One-Shot

-  Clean dies

-  "Square" the seating die.  (Let me know if you need a instruction on that...I dig out my Sierra manual and give their process.)

-  Good bullets

[Action Pistolero]

 I am the friend that posed the question to Alan about the 1050.

 Most of us in the Action Pistol community take accuracy of a pistol as seriously as do benchrest shooters. When I shoot a pistol I am looking to put the second shot in the same hole as the first. Two inch groups at 17 yards, in my opinion, are unacceptable. The Dillon 650 manual states that an overall length variation of plus or minus .020 is acceptable. Alot of this variation depends on how consistant you are with each pull of the handle.

  The other problem this causes most IPSC shooters will never see. Our pistols have tight chambers, we use light loads, and light springs. The pistol and load have to be meticulously tuned. If it's not, you have failure to extract or failure to go into battery. Of course this will always happen when you have 3 seconds to put one shot on each target at 10 yards. This would be an easy feat if I was going for an A zone but that 4 inch X ring is a little more difficult.

   At any rate, here's the procedure I go through to get what I want. Cases are new for all big matches. In this case they are Starline 9 super comp. They are sized, trimmed, deburred and chamfered. They are then weighed and separated into piles that all weigh within .3 grains of each other. Bullets are Hornady 125 gr HAP's. They are sorted by weight within .2 grains of each other. I also use Fed Gold Medal Match primers. I load the rounds on the machine but I seat the bullet out .020 from my target length. I then do the final seat on the bullet with a redding comp die on a rock chucker and then do a final crimp. When I finish, all the rounds measure within .001.

  To most shooters this would seem to be a waste of time. Here are the results:

                2001 TX State and Regional champ

                2002 MS Regional champ

                2002 Bianchi Cup 21st place

                2002 TX State and Regional champ

  Set a new National Record in the Speedload Challenge and shot a personal best 47X Barricade at a registered match. Earned the NRA Action Pistol Distinguished badge with last years MS win.

  Waste of time? Not in my opinion. I started feeling differences in recoil between rounds with the same load. Is the powder measure varying the charge? Does it need to be rebuilt? This year I decided to take it a step further. Use the 650 to size, prime and bell. Use a Redding 30x measure to throw the charges. Use the Rock Chucker for the final seat and crimp. Got 'em loaded but have had too much #$@!#* rain and snow to contend with to get to the range. I'll keep you posted on the results.  

[benos]

I've been fairly successful at Bianchi/Action shooting over the years, and have always loaded all my practice and match ammo on either a Dillon RL 1000 or 1050.

I always use new or once fired brass. I've never sorted brass or bullets by weight, nor loaded rounds by overall length. Basically, if the gun will shoot 1 1/2 to 2" groups, day in day out, every time, I'm happy. Which all my guns over the years would do. So to me the machine is totally acceptable. I am, however, very sensitive to "how I stroke the machine."

[threaddrifton]

Now I know you're gonna think I'm really crazy with what follows, but, I feel wanting your gun to shoot better than 1 1/2" at 50 (off a bench) is overrated. Since in competition we're not shooting off a bench, there's always some "hold" involved. Now consider a shot that breaks just a fuzz outside the x ring. If you're gun shoots every shot into the same hole, you just shot a ten. (No x.) Now if your gun shoots 2 inches, you have a 50/50 chance of shooting a ten with that same shot. So basically the more hold movement is involved, the less critical the gun's accuracy.

Doug Koenig and I talked about this several times at the Masters. We both felt that on the Precision Event, (single arm, offhand hold) we often shot better scores when our pistol wasn't shooting that well. (A bad lot of .22 ammo or whatever.) And I remember the year I won the event, and shot a 24 on the precision with iron sights, I couldn't believe how many plates fell that didn't look all that promising when the shot broke.

Accept your hold, and allow the gun to fire as a surprise. That's were it's at.

[/threaddrifoff]

be

[George D]

Following on from the theme of Brian's post, I have a friend who did the sorting of brass and projectiles exercise and testing the resulting loads using a ransom rest. Strange as it may seem, the discard rounds proved the most accurate. This phenomena is statistically explained by compensating errors.

"Accept your hold, and allow the gun to fire as a surprise. That's were it's at. "

That is indeed where it's all at.