Cooper Tunnel & Rule 2.3.1.1(b)

[brboyer]

We had a stage at a local match this weekend that included a cooper tunnel that caused a bit of controversy. I did not intend to tick off the stage designer: If your reading this I'm sorry, that was not my intent, I was simply trying to understand if my interpertation of the rules is correct.

OK, so we had a shooting area (fault lines) delineated by 2x4's leading up to the tunnel and extending beyond. The cooper tunnel was flanked by walls on either side to prevent shooting at targets beyond the tunnel. The written stage briefing stated "one procedural penalty per step outside the shooting area" this was in an effort to prevent shooters from simply running around the tunnel. There was a space between the right side of the tunnel and the wall to allow the RO to go beyond the tunnel (this wall was moved after initial construction to provide that gap after a group of range Nazi's walked through). The stage briefing also indicated you "must' go through the tunnel - one procedural for each shot fired at targets beyond the tunnel without first traversing the tunnel.

My questions: Does 2.3.1.1( prohibit these procedural penalties? Can the course designer compel me, by way of procedurals, to follow any specific route in the COF?

"The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the corner” on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit competitor movement must do so using target placement, vision barriers and/or physical barriers."

BTW, we all ran the stage through the tunnel in the spirit of the design after learning of the circumstances surrounding it's modified construction.

[ima45dv8]

The first thing that looks out of place is the statement in the WSB that warns, "one procedural penalty per step outside the shooting area". That was one version of the penalty proposed early on, but that was changed to:

10.2.11 A competitor who commits a Forbidden Action (See Rules 2.3.1.1 and

3.2.6) will be stopped immediately and receive a zero score for the

stage. Flagrant or intentional violation may be subject to disqualification

(See Rule 10.6).

I'm sure other folks will be along shortly to offer additional opinions.

*I'm not sure I understand one reference made above. You said a wall was moved to provide an RO pass-through "after a group of range Nazi's walked through". That seems like a sensible idea. I don't think having the RO crawl through the tunnel behind the shooter would be a good solution.

Or maybe I just misunderstood....

[JThompson]

Have a look at 2.2-2.2.6 for some more info also refer to 10.2.2

Edited February 4, 2008 by JThompson

[brboyer]

The first thing that looks out of place is the statement in the WSB that warns, "one procedural penalty per step outside the shooting area". That was one version of the penalty proposed early on, but that was changed to:

10.2.11 A competitor who commits a Forbidden Action (See Rules 2.3.1.1 and

3.2.6) will be stopped immediately and receive a zero score for the

stage. Flagrant or intentional violation may be subject to disqualification

(See Rule 10.6).

I'm sure other folks will be along shortly to offer additional opinions.

*I'm not sure I understand one reference made above. You said a wall was moved to provide an RO pass-through "after a group of range Nazi's walked through". That seems like a sensible idea. I don't think having the RO crawl through the tunnel behind the shooter would be a good solution.

Or maybe I just misunderstood....

I agree it was a safety consideration...but it opened the door for gamers to circumvent the intent of the stage. To make the stage 'legal' I would have put an off limits line adjacent to the fault line and run it into the wall. Then put a gap in the wall beyond the off limits line intersection with the wall for the RO. I would have also had a port inside the tunnel with targets only visible from that port to 'force' shooters to go into the tunnel.

My original questions still stand: Can the WSB compel me to go through the tunnel and/or penalize me for stepping around it?

I also heard complaints when I holstered my pistol (in proper ready condition) before entering the tunnel so I could crawl on both hands and knees. Watching a bunch of other shooters try to crawl with a gun in one hand scared the crap out of me. If I was RO'ing I would have had to DQ quite a few for sweeping themselves! Told them read the rules...8.2.5

Edited February 4, 2008 by brboyer

[JThompson]

The first thing that looks out of place is the statement in the WSB that warns, "one procedural penalty per step outside the shooting area". That was one version of the penalty proposed early on, but that was changed to:

10.2.11 A competitor who commits a Forbidden Action (See Rules 2.3.1.1 and

3.2.6) will be stopped immediately and receive a zero score for the

stage. Flagrant or intentional violation may be subject to disqualification

(See Rule 10.6).

I'm sure other folks will be along shortly to offer additional opinions.

*I'm not sure I understand one reference made above. You said a wall was moved to provide an RO pass-through "after a group of range Nazi's walked through". That seems like a sensible idea. I don't think having the RO crawl through the tunnel behind the shooter would be a good solution.

Or maybe I just misunderstood....

My original questions still stand: Can the WSB compel me to go through the tunnel and/or penalize me for stepping around it?

YES

[racerba]

My original questions still stand: Can the WSB compel me to go through the tunnel and/or penalize me for stepping around it?

YES

AS JThompson stated - YES

WSB clarifies/finalizes what can or cannot be done on a stage.

[brboyer]

My original questions still stand: Can the WSB compel me to go through the tunnel and/or penalize me for stepping around it?

YES

AS JThompson stated - YES

WSB clarifies/finalizes what can or cannot be done on a stage.

Even when the rules specifically prohibit it?

[brboyer]

My original questions still stand: Can the WSB compel me to go through the tunnel and/or penalize me for stepping around it?

YES

AS JThompson stated - YES

WSB clarifies/finalizes what can or cannot be done on a stage.

Even when the rules specifically prohibit it?

You know something, they revised the rules to clear things up, but I think it just muddies the waters more...The more I read them the more I get confused.

Maybe my understanding of a forbidden action is wrong. I read it as anything you put in the WSB that says you cannot do 'X'.

If so, and the 'X' is "you cannot step outside the shooting area" is a direct violation of 2.3.1.1( which prohibits a forbidden action limiting comperitor movement.

Maybe this is not a forbidden action at all..... I need to think about this some more.....

[cliffwalsh]

I would have put an off limits line adjacent to the fault line and run it into the wall. Then put a gap in the wall beyond the off limits line intersection with the wall for the RO. I would have also had a port inside the tunnel with targets only visible from that port to 'force' shooters to go into the tunnel.

You would be more that welcome to show up early and build any stage you want.

[brboyer]

I would have put an off limits line adjacent to the fault line and run it into the wall. Then put a gap in the wall beyond the off limits line intersection with the wall for the RO. I would have also had a port inside the tunnel with targets only visible from that port to 'force' shooters to go into the tunnel.

You would be more that welcome to show up early and build any stage you want.

I've been trying, really I have. Sunday's have been difficult. Hopefully with recent job role changes I'll be able to. At least I get there early on Tuesdays (most of the time) and help build them. And I try to RO as much as possible so those of you that get there early to set up don't have to do that too much.

I'm not bitching, I just want to understand the rules1

[PJONES5]

I would have put an off limits line adjacent to the fault line and run it into the wall. Then put a gap in the wall beyond the off limits line intersection with the wall for the RO. I would have also had a port inside the tunnel with targets only visible from that port to 'force' shooters to go into the tunnel.

You would be more that welcome to show up early and build any stage you want.

He does Cliff.

pat

[wide45]

...I also heard complaints when I holstered my pistol (in proper ready condition) before entering the tunnel so I could crawl on both hands and knees. ...

Keep in mind that rule 10.5.2 still applies when your gun is holstered.

[brboyer]

...I also heard complaints when I holstered my pistol (in proper ready condition) before entering the tunnel so I could crawl on both hands and knees. ...

Keep in mind that rule 10.5.2 still applies when your gun is holstered.

Yep

[Sandro]

Cliff,

Brian does help with scores and stuff. It seems like he is looking for a clear interpretation of the rule.

And to Cliff’s point we, Cliff and I arrived at the range at least 2 ½ hours before everyone to build a stage so all shooters could just show up and have fun…

The issue was caused by the fact that some of the shooters who claimed to be “physically incapable” to go through the tunnel convinced the match director to change the course procedure.

The match director changed the penalty I initially stipulated for each step to only two procedurals total. Even thought this was a club level match I thought the situation could’ve been handled differently.

Sandro

[brboyer]

Cliff,

Brian does help with scores and stuff. It seems like he is looking for a clear interpretation of the rule.

And to Cliff’s point we, Cliff and I arrived at the range at least 2 ½ hours before everyone to build a stage so all shooters could just show up and have fun…

The issue was caused by the fact that some of the shooters who claimed to be “physically incapable” to go through the tunnel convinced the match director to change the course procedure.

The match director changed the penalty I initially stipulated for each step to only two procedurals total. Even thought this was a club level match I thought the situation could’ve been handled differently.

Sandro

Hey Sandro,

Yes. I'm really not looking to cause any problems. Just trying to understand the rules. Today at lunch I was reading the rule book again and just got more confused.

Hey maybe I can convince some RM that my fat gut prevents me from bending over too?

In all seriousness, I do appreciate the work the small handfull of you folks do so we can shoot good stages every week. Hopefully in a couple weeks (if this work issue is resolved - and my ankle quits hurting from the tunnel!) I'll be able to help setup on Sunday's at Ruskin. I have a few ideas in my head from past matches that I'd like to do again.

Maybe next time we do a cooper tunnel we can put a handicap rail at the exit to help us old fat guys stand back up?

[L9X25]

This is the paragraph (emphasis added) that led the Match Director to change the penalty for curcumventing the tunnel.

I did not personally witness anyone on my squad circumvent the tunnel, although there was a lot of complaining about it.

Issuing 2 procedurals actually exceeds the maximum, since it was unlikely that folks shot 100% of the available points.

10.2.10.2 If the request is approved by the Range Master, a minimum of

one procedural penalty, up to a maximum penalty of 20% of the

competitor’s points “as shot” (rounded up to the nearest whole

number), will be deducted from the competitor’s score. For

example, if 100 points are available in the course of fire and the

competitor actually scores 90 points, the special penalty is a

deduction of 18 points. The Range Master may waive any or all

procedural penalties in respect of a competitor who has a significant

physical disability prior to the competitor making his

attempt at the course of fire.

[Sandro]

This is the paragraph (emphasis added) that led the Match Director to change the penalty for curcumventing the tunnel.

I did not personally witness anyone on my squad circumvent the tunnel, although there was a lot of complaining about it.

Issuing 2 procedurals actually exceeds the maximum, since it was unlikely that folks shot 100% of the available points.

10.2.10.2 If the request is approved by the Range Master, a minimum of

one procedural penalty, up to a maximum penalty of 20% of the

competitor’s points “as shot” (rounded up to the nearest whole

number), will be deducted from the competitor’s score. For

example, if 100 points are available in the course of fire and the

competitor actually scores 90 points, the special penalty is a

deduction of 18 points. The Range Master may waive any or all

procedural penalties in respect of a competitor who has a significant

physical disability prior to the competitor making his

attempt at the course of fire.

Leo,

I don’t disagree with the 20% penalty stipulated in the rule book. However, I disagree with definition of physical disability by whoever “decided” to not go through the tunnel. The fact is, those shooters don’t appreciate whoever showed up early to setup up the stage.

Sandro

[L9X25]

Leo,

I don’t disagree with the 20% penalty stipulated in the rule book. However, I disagree with definition of physical disability by whoever “decided” to not go through the tunnel. The fact is, those shooters don’t appreciate whoever showed up early to setup up the stage.

Sandro

Out of 63 people, many of whom qualify for Super Senior, only (3) people had 2 or more procedurals indicating that they may have circumvented the Cooper Tunnel. I know that some of these penalties were likely from dislodged slats, so we are certainly not talking about a significant number of folks. The vast majority of the folks (even the ones that had legit physical limitations) followed the course description and went through the tunnel.

[Sandro]

you're correct, it seems to be always the same people complaining about whatever and not doing much to help setup stages.

[L9X25]

you're correct, it seems to be always the same people complaining about whatever and not doing much to help setup stages.

While that is true, I would never advocate punishing shooters by intentionally setting up stages that would be unreasonable. I would rather see a 3 stage match than see a 6 stage match that was intended to "punish" people.

[Sandro]

you're correct, it seems to be always the same people complaining about whatever and not doing much to help setup stages.

While that is true, I would never advocate punishing shooters by intentionally setting up stages that would be unreasonable. I would rather see a 3 stage match than see a 6 stage match that was intended to "punish" people.

The Cooper tunnel has been around for a long time, I think if anyone thinks it is punishment it is a weak argument. If any other type of stage is more appealing I don't have problem with that. Just show up early and setup.

[ChrisStock]

I have seen stages with this club where the stages were more than a tad slanted to younger,more athletic shooters, and that is not deniable. All you can do is your best and move on to the next stage, and then the next match.

I think I'm not regretting missing this one after all.

[schoonie]

Let's get back to Brian's original question.

I believe that rule 1.1.5.1 allows the stage designer to 'compel' the shooter's actions in a level I match.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a

long course).

The procedurals, although severe, were clearly stated and written in the stage briefing. The only error could have been in assessing only two procedurals for those 'incapacitated' individuals who could not navigate the tunnel. I knew of two individuals that qualified, one with a bad leg and another with a bad back, both of which asked for despensation prior to attempting the course of fire. IMHO anybody who took the two procedurals and was capable should have been DQ'd for unsportsman like conduct!

I think that appologies are due the course designer for all the flack he endured about the perceived rules problem, but not for foisting that d@#n tunnel on us folks with tall bodies or bad knees (that kind of grief just goes with the territory!).

[wide45]

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a

long course).

Means what it says. Can specify reloads, and target engagement. No other leeway for level I matches.

10.2.10 Does not say that anybody may take the special penalty, and bypass the course requirement. Each competitor must apply to the RM.

10.2.10.2 The RM may refuse to allow a competitor to take advantage of the special penalty.

[ima45dv8]

Let's get back to Brian's original question.

I believe that rule 1.1.5.1 allows the stage designer to 'compel' the shooter's actions in a level I match.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a

long course).

The procedurals, although severe, were clearly stated and written in the stage briefing.

Does the rulebook allow specifying a "per step" penalty?

I'm having trouble finding that reference.