Major Caliber 3gun Rifle

[hgr2]

I've not seen many people shooting major cal. rifles at 3gun matches. Is it that most of them are not set up for IPSC or that they don't think they can be competitive with one? I have been playing with my Vandenberg custom FAL in 308 loaded with 125gr. speer tnt bullets and that thing runs great, it ain't a 223 but it ain't bad.

[Brother Jon]

Personally I'm running an AZ. Expert Arms FAL ( 18'' bbl w/ brake) and using that Portagese .308 ( 147gr. FMJ) surplus to good effect; of course I'm a cheap sob.

[kurtm]

HGR2:

I still run an M1A at regional 3-gun matches, and I can still win a match here and there with it. Just in case Kelly thinks this is "picking on neophytes" I would like to remind him that the only real competition I have around here are the likes of Eddie Rhoads, Blane West, Jimmie Holdsworth, and of course my brother, and a few other guys you usually see in the top 20 or so. I really like to shoot major but I flinch every time I see a barrel burning course of fire. I can switch an AR barrel in about 10 minites and for the most part it is fairly inexpensive. It takes me a full day to chamber and index a M1A barrel and the barrels are very expensive. I hate burning up a good 308 barrel on a stage like DEA house that averaged ( something like 46 rounds) 33 seconds time wise and the longes shot was 30 yds. I would rather "burn" one up on really long range steel. I have never shot a bullet lighter than 150 and usually use 168s loaded to 2600 fps. This is the load I always used at S.O.F.

However for big matches, like Mesa, I now shoot a AR, partly because I am sponsored and partly because there isn't enogh point gain to out weigh recoil control. At the old SOF, there was a bigger point spread for major and they really rewarded accuracy ( this is kind of how the regional matches strill work). It was and probably still is the best place for running major. Jimie Holdsworth is going to run an AR-10 at the Nationals with light bullets in open and we will see how he does and I bet it will be pretty good. I have said it befor and I will say it again; most people don't put the time in to learn to shoot a major rifle well, AR are really easy to shoot and are pleanty accurate for the ranges we usually shoot in so most don,t bother with major. However major can be and is a very viable platform for 3-gun, and when the match is done you can take it out hunting for anything in North America!! Thats a win in my book any day. KURT

[kellyn]

Too much recoil and too expensive. However, they're fun. I agree w/ Kurt, there is just something painfully wrong about burning 46 rounds thru a match barreled M1A in 30 seconds. Go shoot it.

[Scooter]

They let you shoot Port 308? It's steel core ammo, don't most matches frown upon that especially when there's steel plates involved?

[hgr2]

Thanks for the replies, I have a couple great ARs and some great FALs and the Fal is probably the rifle I would grab if I needed one in real life. I think 3gun is about the best trigger time you can get to become familiar with your rifle. I'm going to give it a try in a few matches and see what happens.

[Intel6]

I remember shooting a "big" 3 gun match back in the late 80's up in Ione, CA. Remember it distinctly because there was a "big" time area shooter there named Mike Voight.

Anyway, this was just as the heavy flat top AR's were begining to come into the scene. I remember it distinctly because most of the big shooters were using M1A's and me, being a newbee at it, was using my HK91. I was doing OK but I remember some of the others were having some serious problems. I remember one guy running out of ammo on the stage and almost chucking his M1A downrange.

Tha was compounded by the fact that there was one guy there who had just got his comped, heavy barreled AR and he had one of those older BIG aimpoints on it. He and his buddy were using it and boy did they clean up. They smoked all the M1A shooters and I was surprised they made it out of there alive.

Of course those same guys probably had their own AR's not long after that.

Neal in AZ

[lcarr]

Too much recoil and too expensive. However, they're fun.

Does this mean your experiment with the FAL and .260 Remington is over?

Lincoln

[kellyn]

Oh no. I thought we were talking about .308s. The .260 experiment is not over, in fact, I believe that I have infected TGO, expect to see a .260 M1A at the 3 Gun Nationals. It's a specialized item however, a match has to have a power factor for the big guns to even hope to be competitive. In matches with no power factor like Kyle's or MM3G, there is no sense shooting a .308 if you want to be competitive. As with Intel6's story, don't expect to beat Mike Voigt shooting your M1A.

ARs just have too many advantages so I have to recommend them for the new 3 Gunner. They're much more highly developed in terms of sight options, triggers, etc. Plus they are MUCH cheaper to shoot, which means more practice which means more hits faster. But if a person has a .308 that should not scare them away. .308s are fun to shoot (hitting steel with a .308 is much more rewarding than w/ a .223). M1As, FALs, and AR10 are all good guns so if you've got one go shoot it. If He Man class catches on, expect to see more of them.

[skeeter]

hey kelly whats the smallest caliber that makes major? will a .243 how about a 7.62X39 loaded with 150 or 168 grain bullets?

[kellyn]

The Sierra 107 MK is about the heaviest 6 mm bullet out there. It has to go 3177 fps to make major. I suppose that's possible in a long barreled bolt gun but not likely in a 16 to 20 inch rifle. Plus I would not want to be behind an M1A or FAL shooting such hot loads. .243 won't cut it for major.

As for the 7.62X39, a 150 has to travel at 2266 fps and a 168 has to go 2023. I have no experience loading for 7.62X39 so I can't say that it would or wouldn't make it. However, I would not want to engage a 300 yard shot with a 150 grain bullet w/ a muzzle velocity of 2266 fps, too much drop. Those would be short range loads.

The .260 is about the "smallest" factory cartridge that can be chambered in commonly available semi-auto rifles, using commonly available magazines, that makes major, plus it shoots flatter and recoils less than a .308.

[Steve H]

Hey Kelly,

didn't TGO shoot an M1A in .243 at one of the SOF matches years ago? Did that match have a power factor. Remember the story he told us about how after that, they made the rule that it had to be a military caliber? Maybe I was blowing warm Guiness out of my nose when he was telling the story, and missed something.

Steve

[Scooter]

How about downloading a 308 to minor?

[Overkill]

It would be tough to get them to cycle would be my guess. Trajectory might be pretty bad as well, what with a relatively heavy 30cal bullet at slow speed.

[kellyn]

I don't see any reason to load a .308 down to minor. You can shoot really big .308 bullets (180s, 200s, 220s) at low velocities and still make major but that's strictly a short range proposition as they drop like rocks. You need some velocity past 100 yards.

Yes, TGO did shoot a .243 M1A at SOF back in the 80's. His victory lead to SOF's rule regarding strict use of military cartridges only. He does make friends wherever he goes.... I don't know if they had a power factor or if they did what it was.

[Tombstone Tactical]

I shoot a AR-10, 110Gr Horn V-max, 3230 Vol. at The Nationals last year. The course descriptions had a lot of 1/2 targets. Major could have been good. But when I got there they were full targets at pistol range.

No advantage. The gun shoot well, I did'nt. 20 " H-bar. JP comp. 30 rd mag. Could have worked on targets with a min A zone. The weight slowed down the swing some. adjustable gas system tamed the recoil.

Will try it some other time, Perhaps sooner then later.

[kurtm]

Greg:

Go get em!!! Jimmie is going to use this same set up at the Nationals this year, in open no less, lots of paper this year!! good luck!! KURT

[Tombstone Tactical]

kURT, Jimmie will want a 2nd load with a heavier bul. the 110 were good to about 250 or so, I had 155 Palma's for back up.

See you in Raton. Greg

[GvU]

Just returned from the Nordic Rifle in Denmark. The winner (Finish) in IPSC "standard" was using a Sako (Valmet-Kalashnikov with aperture rear-sight) in 7.62x39 shooting major with an 185 grain bullet (don't ask me about loads and brands). As I was one of the RO's there, I got a look at his shooting and thougth he was quite fast.

Of course in IPSC the power factors are lowered a bit to 150/320, maybe that helped.

The winner in "open" was a Norwegian shooting a SR25 (.308), with a very effective compensator / muzzle brake. He was just ahead one of the Finish guy's shooting an "minor" AR.

Don't ask me about my results, I was there with an old gun (M1, H&R ) having fun, just winning experiance. The old gun was reliable though shooting 200+ rounds in the RO-match.

The way to go is .223 though, with or without training.

John

[kellyn]

Would you please describe that match? I've been thinking about going to it. What are the stages like? What kind of targets predominate? Thanks.

[GvU]

It was mainly Classic targets, the rest Pepper poppers, if I recollect right about 4 (I shot the prematch in one day, and then RO-ed for 2 days). Total round count was 206 over 12 stages.

The (militairy) range was situated in about the middle of Denmark. The surface was kind of rough to walk (run) with a loaded rifle. Safety angeles were very tight, because there were no sideberms. You had to be VERY consious about the muzzle direction. Despite firm warnings there were about 5 DQ's on the safety flags (out of approximately 42 participants).

All stages were more or less pointing north north west, which resulted in difficult to see targets (120 - 240meter) until 10:30 (shadow side) against the background. The rest was ok. Remember with the difficult to see, I was shooting open sights. I guess with optics it would have been much easier.

If you want a look at the stages, look at Stages (zipped)

They also have proposed rifle rules up, but there still a couple of contradictions and errors (i.e. pointing at the wrong appendices). Proposed rules 2003 (General Assembly in Itally)

Despite the quite simple set-up and rough terrain, I did enjoy the match (I do need a more appropriate gun ? and certainly with optics (1-4x with dot)).

Maybe next year?

John

PS results and pictures: Nordic Rifle