New RO need some advice..

[jostein jensen]

We had a club training match recently and a rookie was up. He took the general safety and IPSC safety classes last year.

I call up next shooter. We had a unloaded on table start, with tight safe angles.

Shooter starts with placing his gun 1 degree from the "flag". I ask him if he's aware, and he quickly turned his gun more downrange. Would have been a DQ if he had picked it up as i usually does.

Goes through the stage, reload after targets to the left, and being a lefty, I had to yell muzzle on him because he was going to break 180.

After IYAFUASC it gets worse.

He drops the mag and racks the slide. Hammers down and goes down with his gun hand, GUN STILL IN HAND, after the dropped mag, and his OTHER hand after the round on the ground. He was so fast down that I didn't have time to react before he was on the ground taking the mag. Guess I wasn't really prepared for that and it cought (spelling?) me off guard. He was at the 89 again, and a mere inch from sweeping himself.

I asked him jokingly (he's a friend of mine) how badly he wanted the showers, and he does the following, with gun and mag still in hand: Starts turning with gunhand towards me saying "I was only out here with it".

Luckily I was on alert this time yelling SSSST before my hand grabbed his over the grip to control the muzzle.

I pointed his hand downrange, and ordered him to holster asap before he did any more stupidity and gave him a strict talk about his previous run. I didn't give him a DQ since he didn't break 180 or sweep, although it was me who made it to that. It was the last stage so I let him stand for score, but he was done shooting.

Was I wrong and should instead have DQ'ed him for general unsafe gunhandling?

PS: I almost pissed myself when he started turning on me. I thought I would be calm in a situation like that, but I almost blew a godd damn gasket... Like the drop that causes the glass to spill thing...

JJ.

[HoMiE]

If he didn't break the 180 and didn't sweep himself, how can you DQ him for unsafe gun handling? I can't find a rule for "general" unsafe gun handling. There are specific things that a competitor must do in order to be considered "unsafe" and the offense DQ'able.

[ima45dv8]

It's hard to say what you should have done because we weren't there. It sounds like if he had actually swept himself or broke the 180 (or 90, depending on your viewpoint) you would have done your duty and issued the DQ he richly deserved. But since you didn't, it sounds more like an unfortunate series of "almosts" that got your hair standing on end.

You exercized judgement, which is a requirement of an RO. That part isn't clearly defined and is far from an exact science. You counselled him afterward and hopefully it sunk in. I'd leave it at that and watch him like a hawk.

[Merlin Orr]

It's hard to say what you should have done because we weren't there. It sounds like if he had actually swept himself or broke the 180 (or 90, depending on your viewpoint) you would have done your duty and issued the DQ he richly deserved. But since you didn't, it sounds more like an unfortunate series of "almosts" that got your hair standing on end.

You exercized judgement, which is a requirement of an RO. That part isn't clearly defined and is far from an exact science. You counselled him afterward and hopefully it sunk in. I'd leave it at that and watch him like a hawk.

I agree with all of the above.. ....except the spelling....

Rules need to be enforced - but a little common sense and good judgment with a dose of tolerance for a new shooter is also a good thing to see from the RO.

My .02

[Flexmoney]

You did better than me in the exact same situation. I got to see the guys muzzle.

[kevin c]

You kept the situation safe. You advised him to the need for him to learn how to do that himself. If the situation actually became unsafe you would have had to DQ him.

You did right.

Hope your friend took the advice well, will learn, and come back to enjoy the sport. Hope that the experience doesn't sour you on the sport.

[Micah]

You did the right thing. It's always a great idea to talk to those shooters that come damn close to the 180 before they go all the way on the next stage.

[ima45dv8]

It's hard to say what you should have done because we weren't there. It sounds like if he had actually swept himself or broke the 180 (or 90, depending on your viewpoint) you would have done your duty and issued the DQ he richly deserved. But since you didn't, it sounds more like an unfortunate series of "almosts" that got your hair standing on end.

You exercized judgement, which is a requirement of an RO. That part isn't clearly defined and is far from an exact science. You counselled him afterward and hopefully it sunk in. I'd leave it at that and watch him like a hawk.

I agree with all of the above.. ....except the spelling....

Rules need to be enforced - but a little common sense and good judgment with a dose of tolerance for a new shooter is also a good thing to see from the RO.

My .02

You mean this >>exercized<< ?

I confess I work in a very international company, and our email spell checker always finds fault with our spelling of things like, 'organization'. They think it should be 'organisation'. I guess I was in work-mode when I wrote that.

[Joe4d]

Well the first part, in a way was your fault. The shooter puts his unloaded gun down on a table. The RO says ' Its awful close to line" To me I would interpret that as, "move your gun".

Yeh but the rest was a hair raiser. The match was over and I dont think A DQ would have helped. Like others have said you were there and have to make the call. As a general rule a brand new shooter should probably be told, Dont do anything unless instructed to. Sorta the way we do new soldiers.

[alellis]

pardon.

Should have read the post properly before replying

al

Edited January 5, 2008 by alellis

[JThompson]

There's a fine line there when an RO can help put a new shooter at ease, or in some cases, pull their mind from what they should be thinking. With a new shooter, the only jokes I make will be after he has that iron back in the holster and I have declared the range clear. I'm not sure if I've said this right, but if you make light of a situation before the COF is closed you might open it up for another problem.

I understand how you feel about being scared during a COF I had this happen recently. I have not been so keen to run shooters since. My hats off to the RO/CRO who do this day in and day out. I don't think a lot of shooters who don't do this understand how nerve racking it can be. It takes a special person to put their ass on the line for others. Having almost looked at the end with the hole recently, I have a new respect for these people.

Be careful making contact with a shooter too. I wasn't there, but here's how I did it (old hats feel free to jump in) I did not grab the gun or hand, but used the palm of my hand (like a stop motion) to create a barrier to stop his sweep. My flat palm touched the wrist and back of his hand and after he bumped my hand with his sweep I gently pushed so he could not go more in an unsafe direction. I would prefer to get the arm just behind the wrist and not touch the hand, perhaps the trigger finger, but that's where the contact was during this episode. The thing I worry about is scaring a shooter, or my contact making a 180 into a 180 with an AD. So be careful when "grabbing" and imho try and stop the motion without grabbing anything. It sounds like you issued a muzzle warning first and that is a lot safer than making contact. IMHO making contact should be the last thing you do.

Hang in there... nobody got hurt and everyone went home...

JT

Edited January 5, 2008 by JThompson

[jostein jensen]

Thanks for an enormous amount of feedback!

I'll take with me some good pointers here. Especially not to do anything other than get the gun in the holster before I say anything, and the not grab the hand. I agree its a lot safer to just stop the arm than grabbing, but in my defence, it was my first and I didn't really think anything other than I didn't want to be swept.

I'm sure he'll be back again, and I definately won't stop RO'ing. The best way of learning is surviving mistakes right? OK its next best. Best thing is learning from others mistakes, but its a lot harder

Shoot safe!

Jostein.

[Micah]

The best way of learning is surviving mistakes right?

Excellent mindset. It will carry you as far as you are willing to go in everything that you do.

[kimel]

If it was a training match, 8.6.2.1 may have been in effect (or needed to be in effect to some extent).

Without being in your shoes and knowing exactly what you saw, I think you did the right thing. These sorts of judgment calls are some of the hardest calls you have to make as an RO.

Be sure he understands that he has to understand and follow your directions. You told him to holster, he did not. I have had shooters start to do something strange (especially those that bag instead of holster) and I always stop them by repeating "holster". They get the point and usually will follow directions.

There is a shooter that I used to see now and then at another club who likes to bag his gun and even at the end of a field course may not holster to go back to his bag. I learned after the first time and from then on just made him holster and he then go bag in a safe area.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

SNIP

He took the general safety and IPSC safety classes last year.

SNIP

JJ.

My only answer in this is He needs to take it again before someone gets hurt.

[jostein jensen]

If it was a training match, 8.6.2.1 may have been in effect (or needed to be in effect to some extent).

Do we have different rule books?

8.6.2 Any person providing assistance or interference to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor

receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage

and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

This is the only on 8.6.2 that I have. Maybe there are some differences between IPSC and USPSA at this point.

During practice and training matches, I don't see it a problem to suggest a better way to go about with something, cos we're there to learn not to fup uck at higher level matches.

J.

[jostein jensen]

SNIP

He took the general safety and IPSC safety classes last year.

SNIP

JJ.

My only answer in this is He needs to take it again before someone gets hurt.

I'm going to have a friendly 1-1 next time he's on the range to refresh it. There are several shooters over the last month that I've teached to holster before the go for mag/round in trainings. Not everyone is in match mode during practice, but I like to do things right when I'm around. Bad habits gets stuck during practice and they don't just turn off because its an L3..

[JThompson]

If it was a training match, 8.6.2.1 may have been in effect (or needed to be in effect to some extent).

Do we have different rule books?

8.6.2 Any person providing assistance or interference to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor

receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage

and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

This is the only on 8.6.2 that I have. Maybe there are some differences between IPSC and USPSA at this point.

During practice and training matches, I don't see it a problem to suggest a better way to go about with something, cos we're there to learn not to fup uck at higher level matches.

J.

8.6.1

No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot

8.6.2.1

When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request

Edited January 5, 2008 by JThompson

[jostein jensen]

OK then there are differences in the books.

I think thats a nice rule for those who need assistance. Should have been a similar one in our book.

[richardschennberg]

You did great. One simple suggestion for all ROs that deal with a shooter who approaches the 180 too often. I take the shooter aside, and tell him/her that I am about to give advice about muzzle direction. I discuss that although pointing a gun exactly at the 180 (90 degrees from downrange) is just barely within the rules, it's still a bad idea. Another RO might not see the 180 exactly where you think it is and might DQ you. Don't scare spectators and other shooters. Sometimes you have to engage a target close to the 180; just don't move the gun any further. When running left or right, angle the muzzle downrange. And during "Unload and Show Clear," point the gun downrange into the birm.

Keep giving warnings when necessary, and give procedurals or DQs exactly when the rule book says to do so.

[Buzzmeister]

Shooter starts with placing his gun 1 degree from the "flag". I ask him if he's aware, and he quickly turned his gun more downrange. Would have been a DQ if he had picked it up as i usually does.

Excuse me for coming to the dance a little late, but if the shooter had been given the "Make Ready" command, his repositioning of the gun is allowable. If it were done before the command, he would be done for the day.

On a lighter note, in my earlier RO times, I had a guy sweep me with a loaded gun and stupid me grabbed his hand (a big no no). Its just a natural reaction and thank goodness it hasn't happened to me since.