Jake Di Vita Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 My only question is this: Can you show me an empty mag, insert it into a blaster, rack the slide and make it go bang? If not, I don't see how it is possibly a safety violation. Yes some people may not like the sight of a mag in a gun when on a cold range. If so, talk to a RO, have them unload and show clear and politely ask not to do it again at that range. Chances are it was just forgotten in there. Loaded is loaded, unloaded is not. It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I've got to assume that you ment "hammer" since you can't see the trigger.... Singlestack, uh.... oops.... 'trigger cocked back'..... err, I meant HAMMER cocked back. Good catch (and that's what I get for playing on BE when I was sitting at work today ). Flex, sorry, I was not trying to imply that you were saying kill 10.4, but you did say that you "really take exception to is the use of unsportsmanlike conduct as a 'failure to do right' catch-all. That is just flat out wrong, wrong, wrong." I understand your point, and probably wasn't clear in my response. My point was that under 10.4.2, we have some latitude because the competitors need to follow the direction of the range staff (which covers the one in a million situations like this). I disagree. 10.4.2 says, "...pertaining to safety or competitive issues...". Okay, I hear you, but do you or do you not, agree with this? US 10.4.2 The range officials shall have complete authority over all persons on the range. Also, I understand the point you are trying to make about this not being a 'safety issue', but if it isn't a safety issue, then I'm not sure what to call it. My take would be that this is CLEARLY a safety issue, until someone clears the shooter, and insures that it is NOT a safety issue. Handling this any other way is a potential invitation to disaster. I certainly don't see it as a situation where the RO needs to get heavy-handed. No reason to make a mountain out of a mole-hill. I agree 110% with you!! I think what we are disagreeing on is that I really do not think that insuring a gun is clear, and then asking the competitor to PLEASE not stick a mag back in his/her gun, is getting 'heavy-handed'. Okay, is issuing a DQ for the second offense being 'heavy-handed'? Well, it is a tough penalty, but how many times should we have to ask, before we issue the penalty? Like I said, we either have to write a rule for every possible situation (in which case we will have a rule book that looks like the US Tax Code), OR you have to allow some of this to be handled by judgement, and then applied by the RO. If the competitor chooses not to follow the direction of the RO, then he is subject to 10.4 DQ. And if the shooter disagrees, then he goes to Arbitration for a potentially new decision (although, I can not imagine sitting in front of John Amidon, and explaining this one to him).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 You're gonna flunk that RO test! [Thread drift on] Fat lot you know, got my results back today and I got 100% on that thar test, bubba [Thread drift off] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Watch out, Grandmaster R.O. comin' through... make way, her head is big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 OK guys, here's the draft rule: "5.1.2 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or holster. Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be decocked. Violation will incur a warning for the first occurrence but will be subject to Section 10.4 for subsequent occurrences in the same match (also see Rules 10.3.3 and 10.3.15)." This rule may be further tweaked prior to final recommendation, but it's already been supported by the Handgun Rules Committee (no objections from the 5 members). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Okay, I hear you, but do you or do you not, agree with this?US 10.4.2 The range officials shall have complete authority over all persons on the range. Well....no. I don't agree entirely. In this instance...I feel that the one sentance does not convey to entire meaning of the rule. The next sentance of 10.4.2 goes on to further define the rule...pertaining to safety or competitive issues... It even goes further...in the end saying it may lead to a DQ. There is no place for a FTDR in USPSA. Using unsportsmanlike conduct as a FTDR is the biggest mistake I can ever think of for us and our rules. You might as well throw the book in the trash can! It would basically mean that the RO could call anything they damn well pleased...thus, negating all the rest of the book. -------------- I really do not think that insuring a gun is clear, and then asking the competitor to PLEASE not stick a mag back in his/her gun, is getting 'heavy-handed'. I agree. What I think of as heavy-handed is: - the stern talk - the tagging the shooter's score sheet - the possibilty of a DQ FOR NOT breaking a rule! -------------- Vince, Your proposed draft looks good. But, why not treat this like a "dropped handgun outside of the COF"? Like 10.3.16 Clear the shooter and move on. In nearly every instance, it will be a case of the shooter having put an empty mag in the gun for practice. If the gun should prove to be loaded...well, we all know what that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Flex, I think most of this is really just in how the RO handles the situation, and if it is handled correctly really shouldn't be a big issue. Anyway, if we are going to amend the rules, then there's not much else to haggle over on this one! Vince, I agree the proposed rule looks good, but am a little concerned about the "within the boundaries of a safety area" wording. I've never seen a safety area with 'boundaries' so are these defined somewhere? Otherwise, we have to go back to using that old thing called judgement again! Shooter Grrl, hey congratulations on your RO cert!! Do you feel any different now that you have the NROI seal of approval stamped on your forehead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Shooter Grrl, hey congratulations on your RO cert!! Do you feel any different now that you have the NROI seal of approval stamped on your forehead? Nope, no difference at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Vince - looks great! And, it calrifies the grey area in a fair and reasonable manner. Good work. BDH - Good comments so far & I agree w/you. When I first started shooting, I did accidently leave the safety area and approach a first stage with an unloaded gun w/ hammer cocked. I noticed my screw up, notified the RO and under his direction, we cleared the range, verified unloaded, and all was well. Have not done it since. These things happen. Its seems sort of like phenomenon of an unloaded pistol outside a COF falling from a holster - no, it should never happen & must be handled properly. But since we maintain a cold range, the consequences should never result in a dangerous situation. Besides, w/ the prevelence of race holsters in some divisions, will we ever eliminate dropped guns outside COF? I doubt it. As to empty magazine handling within safe area boundries, this needs to be put to rest guys (and girls - great job RO Shooter Grrl!). YOU CAN HANDLE EMPTY MAGAZINES IN THE SAFE AREA. I have seen many mis-marked safe area signs at local matches in Area 8. Magazines? Yes. Loaded mags? No. Loaded ammo? No. Dummy ammo? No. As for boundries, I ran into this once at a sectional. There was a safe area w/ a card table set up and w/in 8 feet or so was a picnic bench. I geared up in the safe area, then went over to the table and sat down to load up my magazines. Another shooter (not a match RO politely informed me I could not handle ammo in the safe area (which was decent of him to do - he did not make a big deal of it). I thanked him for letting me know and asked him politely, could he show me the boundry of the safe area? I moved anyway to make him happy, but we never did settle on where the boundries were - if they are not marked on the ground then I think its up to the shooter to reasonably stay out of the safe area w/ loaded ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THS Posted April 30, 2003 Author Share Posted April 30, 2003 Carlos, In the case of a new shooter, no problem to me, teach\explain and move on. 'Twas not the case here! I vented once in the Hate forum about how some people expect different treatment because they have an M or GM card, and don't think this is the place to spout that again. I intentionally left some of the details out of the first post to see the responses and to keep from ID'ing the shooter involved. I'm not looking to DQ anyone, but I have seen a pattern over the last year...... I'm not a certified RO, nor club official, but I have well over 20 years of shooting at the National level, albeit in other disciplines. This looks like something that will be bad in the future, or maybe not..... Side note: A Big Thanks to everyone who has helped and posted opinions on the rules questions I've presented here over the past year. Each is a situation I've witnessed or been involved in, and have not found an answer AND explanation anywhere except here. Thanks to all. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 For what it's worth, I agree with Flex. There are a number of things about IPSC shooting and RO'ing at IPSC matches that make me nervous. A shooter taking "hot sight pictures" after the load and make ready command, shooters walking around with the hammer back, new shooters who ignore everyone's advice to go slow in their first match and try to be as fast as the top dogs, shooters who get easily flustered when something goes wrong, etc. The reason these things make me nervous is because they could be unsafe. Vince is a pretty creative guy and could probably come up with rules to deal with all of these situations that I've named but given the number of shooters out there someone will always be coming up with something new that's not covered in the rule book. Situations like this are up to the RO to handle. They along with the CRO and Range Master are responsible for the safety of the competitors and spectators at a match. If, as an RO, I saw someone with a mag in their gun I would probably ask them to step up to the line, unload and show clear to prove to me that they are not endangering me, themselves, their fellow competitors, etc. If they were clear and if they explained that they had a reason for wanting an unloaded mag in their gun I would allow them to continue to do it. It would make me nervous but it is not inherently unsafe. If another shooter did not agree with my ruling on allowing them to continue, they could appeal to the Range Master and I wouldn't mind a bit. I think I'm right so I hope the RM would uphold my decision but they are welcome to try. I would imagine that their match would be constantly interrupted at each stage by an RO or fellow competitor wanting to ensure the safety of the match just because it's a little unusual to have a mag in the well in this sport, and I would think that the hassle alone would make them not want to do it, but there is no rule saying they can't and I really don't think there should be. Can someone explain to me how an autoloader with an empty mag in the well any different at all from a revolver with the cylinder closed? Are you going to make me remove the mag tube from my shotgun when I leave the 3-gun safety table? It usually takes me about ten minutes to get the spring and extension tube assembled on my 870 so I hope you guys don't mind a little extra delay when I'm on the line and get the LAMR from now on. You can regulate safety infractions but I don't think we can legislate out the "potential to become a safety infractions", especially in a sport that involves running with guns. ...but then what do I know, my mother still won't even let me run with scissors! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Can someone explain to me how an autoloader with an empty mag in the well any different at all from a revolver with the cylinder closed? Are you going to make me remove the mag tube from my shotgun when I leave the 3-gun safety table? The difference is choice. With a revo, or a shotgun, or a whatever doesn't take mags gun, you really don't have much choice in the matter of removing the ammo carrier in question. With a magazine fed weapon you do have that choice and in matters of safety it is not unreasonable to request that all reasonable means of showing safe be taken. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I've never seen a safety area with 'boundaries' so are these defined somewhere? Brian, One thing I've noticed over the past 6 years of writing rules it that people often confuse "bad range set-up" with "bad rules". When I build a safety area, it's usually about 6 feet square with a rock-solid table inside, stakes & ropes at each side about 4 feet high, and a sign on the back berm stating "This is the safe direction". There's also a "charge line" at the entrance, so people can clearly tell when they are inside the (boundaries of the) safety area. The materials to build this safety area cost us a grand total of US$5. If you've never seen a decent safety area, I hereby appoint you as my US delegate to spread the word of the Lord Vader. And may the Force be with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 John (Patches), You're quite correct that an empty magazine inserted into a holstered gun is not unsafe, but neither is a holstered gun with full magazine, a chambered round and the safety applied, which is the way many (most?) of us carry defensive guns on the street. But let's go one step further. A 1911 with a full magazine and a chambered round pointed at you, while the thumb safety is activated and while your finger is off the trigger is also safe too, right? Not nice, but it's safe. The point I'm trying to make is that we have a set of protocols in IPSC and we also operate on a "multiple redundancy" basis. One of these protocols is that we require that guns be unloaded at all times except when you're on the line under the control and direction of an RO. Empty magazine wells are essentially a "visual comfort" item. If we see an empty mag well, we can be 99% sure that the gun is unloaded. If there's a magazine inserted, we have 0% visual comfort and therefore we must check because one of our multiple redundancies has been breached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 If you've never seen a decent safety area, I hereby appoint you as my US delegate to spread the word of the Lord Vader.And may the Force be with you. Lord Vader, I did not mean to imply that I had never 'seen a decent safety area'...... just that I had never seen a safety area with 'boundaries'. However, I accept your appointment, and will spread the word. In addition, under your authority I will personally inspect the safety areas at Area 3, Area 5, and all four US Nationals. Also, are you granting me any special powers? I'm just not sure that potentially having to challenge Arnie, Troy, Chambers, Amidon, etc., is a job for an un-armed Junior Jedi.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Hmmmm. Arnie, Troy, Tom and John huh? Not a problem. Just tell 'em Vinny sent you and they'll tremble and shake ............ right before they burst out laughing. Give them all my love (in a manly, brotherly kind of way) when you see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Patches, you summed-up things beautifuly and raised an interesting point about revolvers. I guess the answer to that is "..that's the way it's always been done.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I guess I'm just saying that I am comfortable RO'ing by the rules, just not by a "set of protocols". I've learned from this discussion and others (remember the dope who wanted to run up the berm to shoot?) that even the most reasonable protocols are not universally held or accepted. If it gets added to the rule book I'll enforce it, but my personal opinion is that it doesn't need to be added because it makes no sense. I can see no practical difference in the potential for harm between a revolver with the empty cylinder closed, a shotgun with an empty magazine tube attached and a semi-auto pistol with an empty magazine inserted. Our rules say no ammo so no ammo. I think that's enough but if I'm wrong and we need to do more than we're currently doing, if we're really looking to take steps to protect shooters by increasing comfort, then why pick an arbitrary stopping point of semi-autos when we could do so much more just as easily. What would we lose if we changed the range command to "Gun clear, Hammer down, Bag"? Maybe we should open that one to discussion? Finally, lest my point be distorted, I never said or even implied that I would be comfortable with a gun pointed at me. "Always treat every gun as if it were loaded" and "Always keep guns pointed in a safe direction" are words that keep people alive. If I see a gun with no magazine in it, I am 0% certain that it is unloaded and I think that is why we're not allowed to touch them unless we're in a safe area or under the RO's control. Maybe Mac 10's and other open bolts are different but I've never seen one used in an IPSC competition. Seeing a competitor with a mag in their gun walking around absolutely will freak me out simply because I'm not used to it. I'll check the person because most don't leave them in so maybe this guy forgot to remove it and, if he forgot to remove it, what else did he forget? If he didn't forget and he knows that it's in there and he's doing it for a reason then I don't have a problem with that because that gun is no more dangerous than a revolver or shotgun in the same condition. I'm not a nut, I'm not for doing away with all rules, I'm just looking for rules that make sense and accomplish their objectiive. Hopefully, discussions like this will lead to rules like that. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 John, I forgot to get back to you guys about the "side berm" issue, but this is how we intend to handle it: New 2.2.1.3 All berms are "off limits" to all persons at all times, except when access to them is specifically permitted by a range officer (see 7.1.2 and 10.4.1). In respect of "visual comfort" for long guns, both the Shotgun and the Rifle Rules Committees are writing rules which will recommend (but not require) that "chamber checkers" such as these be used between stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Sounds good. Wonder if we could get a deal on some if we bought in bulk for our local club so we could just supply them for competitors at 3-gun matches? By the way, thanks for being on here to discuss things like this whole mag in the gun issue. It's really nice to be able to toss ideas around with someone in the know. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 John, I'm always happy to help and I should also thank all of you guys for bringing up issues which are not adequately covered by the rules. Believe me when I tell you that every time I say to myself "This is the perfect rulebook" I'm usually brought crashing down to Earth in a big heap at the very next match I attend when, Goddammit, another new issue raises it's ugly head. It's unbelievably frustrating. You'd think after 6 years of writing rules I should've covered all the bases by now, but (as we say with friendship and affection in Australia) "you sneaky bastards" always manage to find loopholes. Anyway, after being humbled for so many years, I'm now resigned to the fact that the rulebook will probably never be complete but, with each edition, we get better 'n' better (and I get older and greyer). In respect of the "chamber checkers", we're working on the possibility of IPSC giving them away FOC at a number of major matches over the next 12 months. I'm not 100% sure whether we'll be ready in time, but we hope to kick-off the "Great IPSC Giveaway" at the European Shotgun Championships in Italy in August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Regarding the chamber flags...I spoke to several suppliers/manufacturers prior to the Texas State 3-Gun (intending to buy a bunch and supply them to shooters). I ran out of time and didn't do it this year but will next year. Bill Gravatt of Sinclair International (billg@sinclairintl.com) offered to supply chamber flags at a substantial discount for a sponsorship (not real cheap, but a substantial discount). You might give him an email if you're setting up a 3-gun match. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 If I see a gun with no magazine in it, I am 0% certain that it is unloaded and I think that is why we're not allowed to touch them unless we're in a safe area or under the RO's control. A minor point, but I've always been under the impression you could touch the gun all you wanted at a match - dry gripping it in the holster - you don't have to be running a stage or in a safe area, as long as it stays in the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 You're right and that's what I meant but I should have been more specific. Sorry. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 No problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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