Single Port Comp

[A38337]

Merlin,

While I have shot 9x23 in non-comped guns, I've not shot it in a single comp gun and I've not shot a .460 Roland.

If you do, let us know how it turns out!

I doubt they offer much in the way of increased terminal performance over the best of class 9x19 and .45 acp loads.

The reason I say this, is that driving a .355 faster than 9x19 commercial ammo does not provide increased terminal ballistics. Example, .357 Sig does not perform any better than the best of class 9x19 defense loads.

Of course, driving them faster and faster also makes them increasingly difficult to shoot well.

The FBI found this out with 10mm. The original Norma 170 and 200 grn bullets did not perform vastly better than the slower Federal 180 JHP and Hydrashocks (I have their test data on all these, plus all the other testing they've done since they started publishing it).

Also, apart from a ***slightly*** larger permanent cavity, there is little difference between .355 and .451 bullets. A hit to the cardio vasular or central nervous system with .355 and .451 are little different from one another, as is a non-vital hit, or a miss.

Instead of searching for a modern day equivalent to Excalibur, most people are best served by developing their skills to a high degree.

Edited February 25, 2008 by A38337

[Merlin Orr]

As I now realize that I am in the presence of a true ninja master I humbly take 3 steps back and bow to your obviously superior knowledge and training.

[B.J. Norris]

Hey Merlin,

FWIW, I've shot my ported, comped Open gun from retention (with the gun turned outward, which is my understanding of the proper technique) with no ill effects. Even to the point of I remember feeling less blast that way then I do with the gun in front of my face.

Also FWIW, I'd stick with 9x19, more ammo available and with the Winchester Ranger 127 gr +p+ ammo (it made like a 170 PF out of my G34) , just as powerful as 9x23.

I say go for it!!

Edited February 26, 2008 by B.J. Norris

[HSMITH]

I have built a lot of 'carry comp' guns, my commercial ventures started with comped carry guns as the primary product. There was a period of time when it seemed everyone wanted a compensated carry gun and now not as many want one. I have built enough to KNOW that comps work, even a single port comp on a 45acp. Do you need one? Maybe, only you can decide. I know the comps work and work pretty well, but after that it is a personal decision. If you want one I say go for it, if you don't want one don't get one.

[A38337]

Turning the gun outward is correct, not only from a port/comp standpoint, but also a slide cycling standpoint. You can't always do this, however.

Retention shooting like this, ports/comp is not so much of a problem. It's also not a very effective technique.

http://f-r-i.com/images/retent.gif

Better illustrations of retention technique:

http://www.defensereview.com/5_14_2001/gab...be-Training.jpg

http://www.outdoors.net/site/images/getima...p;ImageID=23423

When we do retention shooting in force on force, we have guys bend at the waist, do the "wash the hair" move to protect their head with their support hand/forearm/elbow and transfer their weight forward to stay standing so they have options to move (avoid going to the ground, that makes the problem more difficult to solve, particularly with multiple threats). This puts the shooters head in close proximity to ports/comp.

In braced contact shooting, the most effective techniques are using 2 hands, which places the support hand fingers/palm on top of the slide where you'd have ports/comp.

In the not too recent past, our state had 4 LEOs killed in just over a year in gun grabs. We train on this situation now. The results have been much better.

Another application of a quasi-retention position is shooting at partial extention from a seated position, like from inside a vehicle. If you extend fully on a close threat, you're handing them the gun out the window. If you shoot from partial extension, the gun will be in close proximity to your face.

The above is not to belittle the opinions and experience of anyone on this board, but my experience has been that comps on carry/duty guns cause more problems than they solve.

[Al Capizzo]

http://www.outdoors.net/site/images/getima...p;ImageID=23423

(click this link in post #55)

OMG!! Now thats a realistic looking drill. I guess thats for when people swing upside down out of trees. I'm gonna spend a lot of time on this drill!

Edited February 26, 2008 by Al Capizzo

[benny hill]

Let me make one thing clear, shoot a gallon jug of water with a 45, jumps a little with a hole in it using any hollow point, then shoot it with a 460 Roland with a 185 hollow point @1600 fps & the jug disappears with a giant vapor cloud in the air. We have a local good shooter who carry's one dailey. You cannot spring a gun enough for this load & must use a comp to controll the gun. However it does shoot FLAT & fast. w/o a comp it would break the gun up quick. Talk about wound cavity except there would be no wound, just death.

[Brian Payne]

The only con I can think of when it comes to a carry comp gun is the muzzle blast and the hearing loss that will follow. I know the compensated Glock in .357 Sig is just plain nasty to be around when fired, even with muffs on. That would still be the least of my fears if I was in a situation that needed a gun in the first place.

As for which caliber works best, pure personal choice on that one. I don't have a problem with 9mm, .40, and I really like the .45. If I am defending my life or the life of a family member, the more power the better. Statistics don't mean crap at that point, pure horsepower is what I would look for.

As for shooting from the retention position, that is a whole different argument unto itself. I will say that after 28 yrs. in law enforcement, that I have never protected myself with my elbow before, nor have I ever seen anyone actually do what is pictured other than in a training environment. When the real world slaps you upside your head with its reality stick, the lizard brain kicks in and you tend to fend off attackers with your hands controlling the situation. Shove - Shoot drills etc... come to mind. But..... if you did get put into a situation where you had to duck down and protected your head with your elbow, you would still be in a situation that would warrant drastic measures to save your life. Gasses and heat from a carry comp would again be one of the least of my worries.

Opinions from an old cop that is still learning so YMMV.

[Flexmoney]

I have a 2011 widebody Commander for a carry gun. Looking at possibilities of a (very) short comp for a 9x23 chambering. I would like it to be a ~1" if possible. Is this something that will actually work for the 9X23 or an unnecessary lump on the end of the barrel?

Opinions?

Well Merlin, you did ask for opinions.

I was going to stay off this thread because I figured you just wanted to buy a cool new gun.

You asked if the single-port comp would work. It will certainly re-direct some gases.

Clearly, there are pros and cons to that.

Earlier I asked what do you get and what do you give up.

Pro

- perhaps a bit of performance gain for Bill Drill type shooting at distance.

- gives you somewhere to hang a front sight

- which doesn't move with the slide

- and would give you that increased sight radius that you like (say, on a commander length slide)

- looks cool

- fun project

Cons

- you may, literally, shoot your eye(s) out, kid (with blast at retention)

- louder

- flash

- hanging a weight on a tilting barrel design does nothing to increase the reliability of the gun, while leaving it off probably does increase the reliability (perhaps not in the 460 that might be an option?)

Those are just some things that came to mind when I thought about the project. I am sure there are lots more (and I'd like to hear them). It doesn't make a difference to me one way or the other. I don't have a dog in this. And, I am surprised that some are taking defensive tones. I guess that is why we don't talk about "tactical" stuff on this forum much.

Which brings me to...

[Flexmoney]

Moderator note:

We generally don't talk tactics and such on Brian's Forum. We won't allow a this caliber vs. that caliber debate arguement. We won't allow back and forth on tactics. We won't tolerate name calling or personal attacks.

A38337 posted a couple links. If you'd like to explore those tactics, PM me and I can put you on a site where they are discussed...by those that teach the stuff and use it. (they are smart, serious, sweaty types...so don't PM me unless you are too)

[Merlin Orr]

Thanks to all who have answered and for each and every opinion stated.

I think I have what I need for an informed decision.

Please close this thread.

[ken hebert]

Quitter.

[eerw]

Quitter.

[Merlin Orr]

[ken hebert]

I don't wanna see it closed. I wanna hear more about carry comps, not what the nay-sayers and tacti-cool crowd has to say negative about them. Like your parents told you (or should have), if you don't have something positive to say, don't say nothing.

And I'm still getting one. Merlin can have his .460 and I'll stick with the 9x23.

BTW, the 1300 fps 9mm +P+ does not hang with 1550 fps 9x23.

[Flexmoney]

Ken,

If you want to see the thread continue, don't go around calling people nay-sayers and tacti-cool. It's not really respectful. Opinions were asked for. All the ones posted were by friendly people, giving what seemed like thoughtful answers to the questions. The posters here are not gun-shop ninjas.

I'd like to see the thread stay open too.

[/Forum Administrator hat off]

------------------------------------

I'd still like to learn some of the benefits of the carry comp.

So far, Benny has suggested that...given a 460 Roland...the comp is likely required to keep the gun from beating itself up.

Upon exploring that a bit more, I also learned that Taffin did a test on those. According to Taffin, the recoil with the comp is more straight back, less twisting up. While I usually take gun-writers reports with a grain of salt....I can see where that might make sense. So, the comp changes the recoil impulse...perhaps allowing those with beat up hands to manage the gun better/differently.

I mentioned a "bill drill" type senario earlier. Perhaps that would come in the form of a wild animal charging (momma pertecting her babies, hog...etc). Where I come from, a pack of dogs might be a more likely senario.

What else?

[Flexmoney]

I was talking with a buddy a few days back. He is running a 180g 40 bullet to 2000fps+ (Contender in 44-10). That brought us around to talking ballistics in an automatic handgun. I've always liked the idea of 10MM. which can get close to 41mag ballistics...in a gun I could pick up and shoot well. Of course, the idea then went to getting 44mag performance in an auto. I think that 460 Roland is a neat idea.

Bullet selection may be as important as anything. I know that I've shot a 38super jhp Gold Dot at 1350...and got no expansion.

[Merlin Orr]

Cartridge Bullet Weight

Grains Velocity

ft/sec Energy

ft/lbs

460 Rowland 185 1500 925

460 Rowland 200 1450 934

460 Rowland 230 1340 917

45 Super 185 1300 694

45 Super 200 1200 639

45 Super 230 1100 617

44 Rem Mag 210 1250 729

44 Rem Mag 240 1180 741

[Larry White]

Cartridge Bullet Weight

Grains Velocity

ft/sec Energy

ft/lbs

460 Rowland 185 1500 925

460 Rowland 200 1450 934

460 Rowland 230 1340 917

45 Super 185 1300 694

45 Super 200 1200 639

45 Super 230 1100 617

44 Rem Mag 210 1250 729

44 Rem Mag 240 1180 741

I shot quite a bit of 230 gr 45 super in a 6in SV( no comp) and it is a bad boy, but the Roland is in a whole nother league. It hits you in the palm pretty good but is much flatter than the 45 super. And the Clark conversion kit is about the best drop in I have ever seen, and they do offer a commander lenght. Renee (rneet on here) at Clarks can fix up up with the kit, ammo and info. Flex, dont know about the alloy but it is thicker in the web area.--------------Larry

Edited February 27, 2008 by Larry White

[Flexmoney]

Yeah...pretty impressive.

Did you see where the guy sectioned the different 45 brass? I wonder if that 460 brass is a different alloy?

[Merlin Orr]

I would guess not as it seems that all brass is the same basic composition. I do know that when you talk about a Kaboom a whole nother picture of the results comes to my mind with (I think) a little over twice the CPU (38,000-39,000) with the Roland....

[Flexmoney]

Flex, dont know about the alloy but it is thicker in the web area.--------------Larry

Well, that is why I asked. I read an article on it last night (I'll find the link). It is said to be thicker (or stronger), but the guy that did the article sectioned some and it didn't prove to be so for him.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/106.htm

Edited February 28, 2008 by Flexmoney
edit to add link

[EricW]

And bye the bye... I now have a short regular STI wide frame and slides in both 9mm and .45......... Something is going to happen soon.

Goddammit...I *knew* it was you who got to that frame first!

[aggunner]

Started life as a plain jane SA lightweight compact that i bought used off the EE. The original owner had sent it to the custom shop for the solid trigger, trigger job, firing pin , and slide stop.

Since i've had it I added an EGW firing pin stop, C&S mag well, storm lake barrel, and had EGW fit a single port carry comp on it and had them cut a relief in the ejection port so I could eject live rounds. I also had EGW swap out the recoil setup to a flgr using a glock flat spring. It's my daily carry and it goes where I go.

ETA: idiot mark was done by previous owner

Edited March 21, 2008 by aggunner

[ken hebert]

Now thats what a carry gun should look like (lotsa holster wear).