Production Holster for Revo

[FL Wheeler]

Hi All:

I have been looking for the rule in USPSA about revolver holsters for Production. I have a Hogue speed holster for my 627. What rule or appendix says I can't use this this year?

The 2008 Rule book clearly states no speed holsters and revolvers holsters must cover half the cylinder for Production.

The picture in appendix F3 shows the position of the holster and it looks like a speed holster to me (just like the Hogue)

I have a match Saturday. Thank goodness I have a North Mountain holder.

Bob

[LPatterson]

The picture is strictly a representation of location for equipment & based on that your North Mountain holder would have to have the first moon located behind the hip bone. I think you would be giving away too much to try to shoot a Revolver in Production Division when you could be shooting it in Revolver Division & limit your # of shots to 6. Revolver Division does not have a holster restriction & equipment can be placed anywhere. Only restriction is that ammo be larger than 9X19 & no optics.

[vrmn1]

Yeah that picture is just a representation. You will need something like a Blade Tech or something.

Run that 8 shot revolver in production, not too many target arrays require more than 8 shots. Do your reload on the move and you will be ok. I have beat many slide guns with my 6 shot revolver with 2 extra shots you are pretty even with limited 10 and production.

I wouldn't do it in a big match but in a local match have fun.

I am going to shot my Smith 19 in production in our little weekly fun match in a few weeks.

[FL Wheeler]

I shoot revo most of the time but at this club match it seems like every array is 8 round neutral. No other revos so it takes some of the fun out of the match. I still beat a lot of bottom feeders though. Everyone tells me I need the full holster but no one has been able to show me in the rule book. I am a level one RO and I seem to have overlooked it.

I have a nylon holster that was made for a M&P with a light on the bottom. I think it will be legal but if no one can show me the rule, I don't want to use.

[Delta Mike]

I shoot revo most of the time but at this club match it seems like every array is 8 round neutral. No other revos so it takes some of the fun out of the match. I still beat a lot of bottom feeders though. Everyone tells me I need the full holster but no one has been able to show me in the rule book. I am a level one RO and I seem to have overlooked it.

I have a nylon holster that was made for a M&P with a light on the bottom. I think it will be legal but if no one can show me the rule, I don't want to use.

My take is that if no one can show you the rule, it must be legal

[Delta Mike]

double post, my bad...

Edited November 28, 2007 by Delta Mike

[Tom E]

I would think that reading Appendix D9 item 23 would be in order. The rule book. Level 1 RO?

[Carmoney]

Starting January 2008, if shooting a revolver in Production division, moonclips/speedloaders are exempt from the "belt position" provision--so feel free to string them across the whole front of your body if you want. Production holsters, including revolver holsters, must not be "race gun type" and the front of the holster can be open no lower than halfway down the cylinder--so no Hogues, no CR Speeds, no 002s, etc.

Here's the biggie--remember in Production division, modifications to the gun are prohibited, except for those which are specifically authorized in part 21 of App. D. The only authorized modifications that could pertain to revolver are internal polishing, sights, grip checkering/stippling/tape, and exchange of springs.

Everything else--including all sorts of stuff that most of us have done to improve our revovlers--replacement thumblatches, bobbed hammers, rounded triggers, and so forth--are prohibited. You can't even replace the grips (or "stocks" as the little ol' hens on the S&W forum insist we call them) on your wheelgun in Production. You can only checker, stipple, or tape the grips that came on the gun.

Them's the rules. Now--my personal commentary: If you want to run a wheel, why bother with Production? Sure, for local club matches where nobody cares, have fun in Production with your 627. Whatever rolls your trigger, bro. But we all know it's really just a stunt--you'll never be competitive at any sort of well-attended major USPSA match with an 8-shot revolver in Production. If you really want to use that 8-shooter in competition, that's the whole point of ICORE. If there's no ICORE club in your area, spread the word and start one up. If you're serious about shooting a revolver in USPSA, that's why we have Revolver Division!

[Jerry V]

Actually, some modifications are allowed to your 627 for Production. I wrote John Amidon about this last Dec. and here was his reply:

Hi Jerry,

I do not see any reason why your S&W 627 with a bobbed hammer, would not be

legal in Production, providing all the other criteria is met. Under an

earlier interpretation for Production, you can exchange external parts from

one approved model to another with some exceptions.

If you go to the uspsa.org web site and click on the rules link at the top,

then scroll down to NROI Rulings, it shows the external modifications

ruling, click on that and all the interpretation is listed, here is part of

it:

Interpretation:

US Appendix D9 Production Division 21.5 "External modifications other than

sights not allowed." This clause is not meant to prohibit exchanging

external parts from one approved model handgun to another approved model

handgun. Exchanging external parts from one approved model handgun to

another approved model handgun from the same manufacturer is allowed,

providing that the parts are original manufacturers parts and offered in

their catalogs or on their handguns that otherwise meet division criteria.

The following original manufacturer parts may be exchanged: Extended mag

release, extended slide stop and external safeties including ambidextrous,

provided they stay within the intent of the division. No added weights, no

mag well attachments, no thumb rest or external devices used to help reduce

recoil and/or muzzle flip may be exchanged.

John

When I wrote for a little more clarification, this was his next reply:

First, under revolver division:

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder

releases;

So based on this, you are allowed to modify your hammer (remove the hammer

spur if so chosen).

Second, under approved handguns for Production division:

S&W (Any DAO or DA/SA revolver with a barrel length of up to 8.5" is

approved).

So if your 627, with the approved modifications in Revolver division, meets

the above requirements in Production division, DAO, DA/SA and a barrel

length of up to 8.5", has no optical sights, no compensator or ports in the

barrels, you are good to go.

John

For what it's worth

[Tom E]

When I wrote for a little more clarification, this was his next reply:

First, under revolver division:

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder

releases;

So based on this, you are allowed to modify your hammer (remove the hammer

spur if so chosen).

John

For what it's worth

If I'm reading this correctly and this is "the word of God", all our revolver div. legal mods are grandfathered as production legal.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Tom E

[FL Wheeler]

TomE

Well I feel pretty stupid now. It can't get any more obvious than that. I can't belive I overlooked it so many times. Maybe that page is missing from my green book. Yeah. That's it the page is missing. It's on to the nylon holster. Thanks

Mike

Now you have made me feel guilty about shooting production. I was running an ICORE monthly match in central FL but the range got closed. I will probably join another range and start ICORE here again.

[Carmoney]

OK, first off--every time I have communicated with Amidon about rules, he has made a point to remind me that his emails are merely his thoughts and opinions, and do not carry the authority of the published NROI rulings.

But more importantly, Amidon's interpretations cited by Jerry V refer to the old rule book. We're now starting over in January with a 2008 rulebook, so all bets are off. The new rulebook attempts to address all the issues that were problematic in the past and required NROI interpretation. For exampe, the concept of "no external modifications" which was such a huge issue in the old Production rules, is now out the window.

It is also important to note that Revolver Division rules and Production Division rules have nothing to do with one another. A number of modifications were allowed in Revolver Division--this never meant those same modifications are allowed in Production. There's no basis for "grandfathering" anything.

Under Amidon's interpretation of the old rules, you might have been able to exchange in a factory-original, unaltered, spurless hammer from another Production-approved revolver model (if you could find that S&W ever made such a thing for the N-frames and included it in their catalog)--the same way you could install a factory extended mag release on a Glock. But that interpretation still would not include aftermarket parts like a Randy hammer, or externally-modified parts like a home-bobbed Dremel job.

When it comes down to it, all of this is pretty much academic. Nobody at the match is ever going to know or care whether there's a spur on your hammer, whether the trigger has been contoured, or whether those grips are the ones that came on the gun. The reason nobody will care is that 8-shot revolvers are not competitive at the higher levels of Production. If somebody ever started winning Production at big USPSA matches with a wheelgun, though, there would be intense scrutiny--remember when Team Glock threw the hissy-fit at the last World Shoot when they thought they saw a small shiny spot under the trigger guard of Adam Tyc's CZ that might indicate a little polishing or contouring had been done?

This is why we campaigned so hard to make sure we wouldn't have similar hassles in Revolver Division. Our 2008 Revolver rules are pretty easy to understand--I dare say there will be no reason to request any interpretations from Amidon or NROI! And that's a good thing.

[Carmoney]

Mike

Now you have made me feel guilty about shooting production.

You should not feel guilty about that.

You should, however, feel guilty about your lucky run on the Near and Far Standards at the IRC, and the gloating you subjected us to afterward.

[Tom E]

It's difficult to prepare for next year when USPSA, in their infinite wisdom, has chosen to keep the new rules unpublished.

[vrmn1]

It's difficult to prepare for next year when USPSA, in their infinite wisdom, has chosen to keep the new rules unpublished.

I got my new rule book today and the new rules have been on the web sight for a couple of weeks.

[10mmdave]

It's difficult to prepare for next year when USPSA, in their infinite wisdom, has chosen to keep the new rules unpublished.

Here's a link to the new 2008 rules; http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2008HandgunRulesindexed.pdf

[FL Wheeler]

Mike

Now you have made me feel guilty about shooting production.

You should not feel guilty about that.

You should, however, feel guilty about your lucky run on the Near and Far Standards at the IRC, and the gloating you subjected us to afterward.

Oh Gee. I'd had forgoten all about that. Mr Bang Beep Bang.

[hearthco]

Oh Gee. I'd had forgoten all about that. Mr Bang Beep Bang.

Perhaps you could expand on the "Mr Bang Beep Bang"? Hearthco

[Carmoney]

It's the noise I make trying to shoot a frickin' fixed-time stage. The only topic from the '07 shooting season I hate more than this one is "briefcases and beltlines." (Don't ask, Dave....just don't ask....)

[Tom E]

It's the noise I make trying to shoot a frickin' fixed-time stage. The only topic from the '07 shooting season I hate more than this one is "briefcases and beltlines." (Don't ask, Dave....just don't ask....)

When I do it, it's bang, beep, bang, censored... Gotta hear about briefcases and beltlines.

[Tom Mainus]

Tom,

I got mine this week so I know they have made it to the state line.

Tom M.

[hearthco]

[When I do it, it's bang, beep, bang, censored... Gotta hear about briefcases and beltlines.

Yes Mike, do tell us about briefcases and beltlines. Hearthco