Define stronghand

[rtr]

I think anyone who has been around IPSC for more than about an hour can tell you what a stronghand and weakhand is. But I can't find a definition of it in the rulebook.

tonight we are shooting six chickens, stage descriptions says 6 targets freestyle, reload, 6 targets stronghand. Shooter draws the gun from a holster on his left hip, shoots the first six shots pulling the trigger with his left hand and right hand supporting. After the reload he then shoots using only his right hand. What is the call and under what rule? We had two ROs and two CROs who were unable to find a rule that would back up asessing procedurals for this.

[HoMiE]

The definition of "stong hand" is not in the 2004 rule book, but it is in the 2008 rules.

Was there an advantage gained? I would say most people don't shoot as well weak handed, so I would only give 1 procedural for not following WSB.

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in

the written stage briefing will incur 1 procedural penalty for each

occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant

advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be

assessed 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single

penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required

position or stance).

[Gary Stevens]

The strong hand is the hand that is on the side where the holster is.

Gary

[Jim Norman]

Stronghand (as Gary says) is the hand one the side you wear your gun.

Weakhand is the other side.

Stating that Stronghand is the hand you "normally shoot with" is not a good description, although for 99% of us it probably says the same thing as the side you wear your gun on. Specifically defining what USPSA means by the two words above should lead to less confusion and maybe better WSB writing since we will all be speaking the same language.

Freestyle, now that is the real question here. Just what exactly is Freestyle? Many shooters, even highly experienced shooters seem to think it means shooting with both hands. Sadly they are mistaken, Freestyle means exactly what it says; Any Shooting Style, Stance or Grip is acceptable and you may engage targets on an as seen basis in any safe manner not otherwise prohibited. This means in plain English, Shoot with one hand or two and support with either hand as you feel the need.

If the WSB says shoot T1 Stronghand, I can do this two ways (Being a righty) Draw and shoot with JUST my Right hand, OR since the WSB did not say Stronghand ONLY, I can support the gun with my Left. For T2 which is to be shot FREESTYLE, I can shoot it in the following manner: Stronghand supported, Weakhand supported, Stronghand only OR Weakhand only.

The bigger issue I have is with the phrase Significant Advantage Gained. This has always bothered me. My thought is that we should do away with this and set the penalty as either One Procedural or a Per Shot Fired and this should ALWAYS be written in the WSB. We should, in my opinion default to the Per Shot Fired penalty if no other information is provided in the WSB.

My opinion

Jim

(Edited to furher define the terms)

Edited November 6, 2007 by Jim Norman

[mlmiller1]

If he chose to shoot that way either he is a new shooter or he is right handed. Either way, why should he get a penalty at all? If he is brand new, someone should tell him he probably made it harder on himself by using his offside hand. If he is a better shooter with his right but normally shoots left handed, so what? If the WSB said "strong hand" & there is no definition in the rules for strong hand, then maybe he did use his strong hand. I say no penalty. If they want you to shoot with the hand on the side of the holster, they should say so. Just my opinion, so YMMV. MLM

[SA Friday]

I think you have to make the deterimination based on the first shots fired freestyle. When the shooter was shooting with both hands, the shooter was using his right hand to support. That makes his left hand his strong hand.

I agree with only assessing one procedural for failure to follow the WSB vs per shot fired. Any possible advantage would have been mitigated by the time to transition the gun from one hand to the other.

[LadyinBlue]

Strong hand... The hand a competitor uses to draw their handgun from their holster.

Found in Appendix A3 of the 2008 rule book.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/draft2008/USPSA...Watermarked.pdf

[jmorris]

So ding him next year, if it’s not in the current book I’d say he gets a pass. Nothings worse than “interpreting”, “it the sprit” or “what they intended” talk from RO’s if it’s not in the book, learn from it (good or bad), instead of criticize it. Wow, no wonder these books keep getting thicker.

[Jim Norman]

I think you have to make the deterimination based on the first shots fired freestyle. When the shooter was shooting with both hands, the shooter was using his right hand to support. That makes his left hand his strong hand.

I agree with only assessing one procedural for failure to follow the WSB vs per shot fired. Any possible advantage would have been mitigated by the time to transition the gun from one hand to the other.

Stronghand CANNOT be defined by the hand the shooter pulls the trigger with during a Freestyle engagement. Freestyle allows him to use either hand or both in any manner he wishes.

LadyinBlue has it correct:

Strong hand... The hand a competitor uses to draw their handgun from their holster.

Found in Appendix A3 of the 2008 rule book.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/draft2008/USPSA...Watermarked.pdf

And I would go so far as to argue that we should define Stronghand as the hand on the same side of the body that the holster is worn or in a case where the holster is worn in the center of the fron t of the body, the side of the body that the gun will be moved toward in order to clear the holster. (Assume that the holster is of the Blad-tec type for only the purpose of deining thi movement. Thanks Bob, I missed that you can arguably lift a gun out of certain holsters without rearward movement. This should still cover the currently frowned upon cross-draw holster)

Jim

Edited November 6, 2007 by Jim Norman

[racerba]

...the side of the body that the gun will be moved toward in order to clear the holster.

That won't work because a right handed shooter will move the gun towards his left to clear his holster (Hogue speed holster is a great example). For the CR Speed, it's a slight movement before going towards the left. The perfect definition is already given:

Strong hand... The hand a competitor uses to draw their handgun from their holster.

[rtr]

So if you're the MD in this case how would you back up a ruling of asessing a procedural?

The shooter is a teenager, his father explained that the kid is ambidextrous. That his left hand has better dexterity in the fingers so is better in terms of trigger control, but that his right arms is stronger so it's easier to shoot with his right hand. Seems to me that speaks about a possible advantage gained.

If this were done at nationals what would happen?

[racerba]

So if you're the MD in this case how would you back up a ruling of asessing a procedural?

The shooter is a teenager, his father explained that the kid is ambidextrous. That his left hand has better dexterity in the fingers so is better in terms of trigger control, but that his right arms is stronger so it's easier to shoot with his right hand. Seems to me that speaks about a possible advantage gained.

If this were done at nationals what would happen?

If I was the MD my ruling would be as follows:

"Since the shooter chooses to use his left hand to shoot the majority of the time, his left hand is then considered his strong hand. Strong does not necessarily mean the strength of the muscle. It also applies the strength of the shooting ability. The shooter believes that the dexterity of the left hand is a stronger advantage than the muscle strength of his right hand, therefore the shooter believes that his left hand is the strength of his shooting. His left hand is therefore his strong hand."

IMHO

Edited November 6, 2007 by racerba

[SA Friday]

Stronghand CANNOT be defined by the hand the shooter pulls the trigger with during a Freestyle engagement. Freestyle allows him to use either hand or both in any manner he wishes.

I believe this could be debated based on the shooters target engagement on a regular basis. But, with that said, I did think of the above after I posted. It's a moot point after 1 Jan 08 anyway, because strong and weak hand are defined in the new rules.

racerba has the best definition I've seen on this so far.

As for how this would shake out at a Nationals, that would be very interesting to know. Chris, PM McManus and ask him to chime in on this or post it on the USPSA forum.

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about, Whistling Pines match? Younger kid that's been going with his dad since the matches started there?

[Jim Norman]

Nope, not the majority of the time. Too ambiguous. I would stick with the hand the shooter draws the gun with as Strong Hand and the other hand as the Weak Hand. just my 2 cents.

You definately CANNOT callit by the first shot fired IF the WSB says Freestyle. If on the other hand the WSB says engage T1 SHO and then engage T2 WHO, we can make an argument that the first shots defined Stronghand, but in my opinion, the new rule book pretty well lloks to cover this.

I think even the most determined Range Lawyer will have to concede that the Strong hand will evermore be the hand that is the hand the gun is drawn with. And if you somehow want to draw bassackwards by wearing your gun o the right and drawing with your left, so be it. You will then have to shoot all SHO strings with your left hand. Generally the WHO strings are the 'easier' strings so you'll only be doing yourself a dis-service.

Jim

[mactiger]

If I were MD, I'd turn it over to the RM.

Seriously, if he drew and shot with his left hand, from the left side, that's his strong hand, and he therefore earns one procedural penalty for not following the procedure as described. Ambidexterity can throw a monkey wrench in the works sometimes, but one procedural penalty is the right call, IMO.

Troy

[mlmiller1]

In the present rule book, what rule are you using to give this penalty? I didn't think you could give a penalty without a rule behind it. MLM

[HoMiE]

In the present rule book, what rule are you using to give this penalty? I didn't think you could give a penalty without a rule behind it. MLM

The rule for not following WSB.

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in

the written stage briefing will incur 1 procedural penalty for each

occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant

advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be

assessed 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single

penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required

position or stance).

[mlmiller1]

Common knowledge is not the same as a rule from the book. If strong hand is not defined in the rules then you can't give a penalty. For this young man, strong hand is his right hand. If the WSB had said draw & shoot with your holster side hand only, then you could give penalties but it didn't say that. Unless possibly the r.o. said "strong hand only" & demonstrated shooting with his holster side hand, maybe, maybe you could give a penalty. Then he would have had to add "if you draw from the left side, you shoot with your left hand" to clarify this. I don't think you should give a penalty. I don't think unless you are just itching to penalize someone you can give a penalty for this. The WSB wanted you to shoot one handed, it wanted you to shoot with what most people shoot best one handed & that is the strong hand. He did just that. Now if it had said "weak hand" & he used his better hand, then maybe you could give a penalty. Maybe. If you are working outside the rule book, you are asking for an arbitration. Just my opinion, though.

MLM

[HoMiE]

Here is the Stage Procedure for CM 03-02 Six Chickens.

On the signal, engage T1-T6 with one round maximum

freestyle, perform a mandatory reload, then reengage T1-T6

with one round maximum, strong hand only.

It does state strong hand only. The RO shouldn't have to add anything to WSB. It is up to the competitor to ask the questions if they are unsure or unclear what strong hand only means.

[Nik Habicht]

So --- the competitor is wearing a holster on his left side, and shoots freestyle like a lefty? But he wants to shoot strong hand only with his right hand? I don't think I need a definition in the rulebook to make that call, and I'm pretty sure I know how a local arbitration committee would rule on that.....

[mactiger]

Common knowledge is not the same as a rule from the book. If strong hand is not defined in the rules then you can't give a penalty. For this young man, strong hand is his right hand. If the WSB had said draw & shoot with your holster side hand only, then you could give penalties but it didn't say that. Unless possibly the r.o. said "strong hand only" & demonstrated shooting with his holster side hand, maybe, maybe you could give a penalty. Then he would have had to add "if you draw from the left side, you shoot with your left hand" to clarify this. I don't think you should give a penalty. I don't think unless you are just itching to penalize someone you can give a penalty for this. The WSB wanted you to shoot one handed, it wanted you to shoot with what most people shoot best one handed & that is the strong hand. He did just that. Now if it had said "weak hand" & he used his better hand, then maybe you could give a penalty. Maybe. If you are working outside the rule book, you are asking for an arbitration. Just my opinion, though.

MLM

When a competitor comes to the course of fire, ready to shoot, and the RO gives him the range commands, the RO must make certain assumptions, one of them is the obvious one: which side is the holster on, (so he can work from that side), and therefore, which hand will this competitor be shooting with, freestyle.

If this person's strong hand is his right hand, why isn't he drawing and shooting freestyle with it? I don't think it is, since he could have worn his holster on the right side, and done everything with his right hand.

If he draws and shoots with his left hand (holster on the left side, left hand finger on the trigger, right hand supporting), that's his strong hand by any application of common sense, and common practice. The hand he uses to support his gun is therefore his weak hand, which in this case is his right hand. Homie stated the right rule. Whether he's actually stronger in his right hand is not something the RO can determine, but the strong side is always the holster side, which is all the RO has to go by. Since by this process he used his weak hand, he earns one procedural penalty, which is the proper penalty to assess, and not because someone is itching to issue a procedural. It's assessed because the competitor did not follow the course procedure. Perhaps knowing that this person shoots better one-handed with his right hand could be grounds for per-shot procedurals, but in most cases, the RO would not know that, so one penalty it is.

Not giving a procedural penalty in this case is too liberal an interpretation of the rules.

There is no value in going into "holster side hand" course descriptions, and in this case it's moot, since it's a classifier.

Troy

[mlmiller1]

That is cool that you don't need a rule specific about strong & weak hand in the book for this situation. How about that? Learn something new everyday. It does make me wonder why there is a rule about it in the new book. HMMMM. Guess we didn't need one before but next year we do. Just to be sure, I suppose. MLM

[Nik Habicht]

That is cool that you don't need a rule specific about strong & weak hand in the book for this situation. How about that? Learn something new everyday. It does make me wonder why there is a rule about it in the new book. HMMMM. Guess we didn't need one before but next year we do. Just to be sure, I suppose. MLM

To deal with Texan range lawyers? :lol:

[mactiger]

That is cool that you don't need a rule specific about strong & weak hand in the book for this situation. How about that? Learn something new everyday. It does make me wonder why there is a rule about it in the new book. HMMMM. Guess we didn't need one before but next year we do. Just to be sure, I suppose. MLM

To deal with Texan range lawyers? :lol:

[mlmiller1]

That is cool that you don't need a rule specific about strong & weak hand in the book for this situation. How about that? Learn something new everyday. It does make me wonder why there is a rule about it in the new book. HMMMM. Guess we didn't need one before but next year we do. Just to be sure, I suppose. MLM

To deal with Texan range lawyers? :lol:

You betcha!!!!

MLM