DrShooter Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 The rules seem to be pretty clear that you can't make your own gun parts, mentioning factories, public availability, and at least 500 produced. However, other rules that seemed clear to me have turned out to be otherwise after hearing from our Area Directors, et al. on this forum. So I put it to you all: If I made a functionally equivalent copy of a, say STI, frame and built a pistol around it, would it be legal in USPSA Limited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 No, I don't think so. I think you need to meet the 500 produced and available for one year thing for Limited and Limited-10. (I haven't looked that up lately though.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 What would the BATF have to say about building your own frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 (edited) Perfectly legal as long as it's not built for resale. Edited October 25, 2007 by Matt Cheely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 It is legal to make your own frame from a BATFE standpoint, as long as you are making it for yourself, you can't sell it. There's more info at the home gunsmithing forums of Roderus Custom. One of the threads is on a homemade 2011 style frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 It is legal to make your own frame from a BATFE standpoint, as long as you are making it for yourself, you can't sell it. There's more info at the home gunsmithing forums of Roderus Custom. One of the threads is on a homemade 2011 style frame. Very correct, There is a shooter at our club who is also a machinist and he has built his own sti frame complete minus serial numbers or anyother markins on the frame. He built it ordered the grip and screw kit from brownells and the built the entire gun. If you didnt know you would think it was another short dustcover sti in the group. Some of the other web forums such as ar15 talk about making your own reciever and where to buy 80% forgings so you can accomplish it. Not for me but what the heck, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 It is legal to make your own frame from a BATFE standpoint, as long as you are making it for yourself, you can't sell it. There's more info at the home gunsmithing forums of Roderus Custom. One of the threads is on a homemade 2011 style frame. You can sell it just like any other firearm but you can not make it for the propose of selling it with out a license. Back on topic: If you look at everybody's guns at the matches, they are all different, and many are put together by different gunsmiths, that certainly do not turnout 500 of the exact same gun. Many of the smaller 1911 manufactures do not make 500 of a model before making changes for the next years design. That being said they all use “standard” parts so as long as it is as “standard” as any other gun of that type I see no problem in some one making a part themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrShooter Posted October 25, 2007 Author Share Posted October 25, 2007 But from the rules point of view... Say you won Area 1 Limited shooting such a gun, would they throw you into Open and give the win to 2nd place? Not that that would ever happen to me personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 As long as its a copy of an approved model you should be ok. What with the current STI/SVI patent running out in Feb of next year you might be seeing a lot of STI/SVI type frames showing up just like you see a lot of 1911 type frames available (Patent # 5293708). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 What would the BATF have to say about building your own frame? Hi Merlin & Flex: As far as USPSA, I agree with Flex; even if its an exact copy, wouldn't it be considered a "prototype" and thus fall in Open division? Maybe Amidon will have to ultimatly decide this one. On home-made guns: BATFE has made rulings on making your own guns at home and it is lawful. Might seem amazing, but, did you know you are allowed to brew your own beer at home too? You can't do it if you are under 21, or if you live in a dry county, and by the same token, a minor can't make their own gun, not could residents of D.C. (for now). But, it is allowed and it is commonly done. Still in doubt? Take a look at all the home made, serial-number-free guns posted on www.roderuscustom.tzo.com RODERUS SITE or look at ar15.com site's "build it yourself" section for all the home-machined AR-15 and AK-47 clones built at home. Better yet, take a look at batfe's own FAQ right on their website. If still in doubt, there are letters out there where the question has been answered by batfe over & over and in all cases, its allowed under federal law, provided the gun is in a legal configuration and allowed in your state. Look, I have a steady government job, mortgage, and now a wife. I am not about to take any sort of risk (at all) on an activity the might have even the slightest POSSIBILITY of being against the law or getting me arrested (an arrest record is still an arrest record - I wouldn't risk that, ever). I would not make a gun at home, nor advocate it on a public forum, if I had the slightest doubt it is not permitted. But the fact is, the issue has been gone over countless times since I first heard about it in 2000. Like making beer at home, it is allowed (for now). BTW, I live in Virginia. Regards, D.C. Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Lets keep in mind that anything we read...is an opinion, not rule. (and, I don't know anybody that gets the calls right 100%) It may be a commonly held opinion and how a call is likely to go down if you run into something, but... The "official" word comes out of the text of the rule book, and off the official rulings post on the USPSA website. OK...off my loudspeaker. --------------------- Now...I don't know how consistent the BOD would be if they made a ruling on this (nor Amidon with an opinion), but there is a bit of precedent: Title: Raised rib barrel legality Created: 8/14/04 Updated: 10/16/04 Effective: 10/12/04 Rule number: Appendix D7 item Applies to: Pistol Ruling authority: John Amidon Status: Released Ruling SV has provided confirmation that the "Sight Tracker" has met the requirements of 500 produced and a year of production in .40S&W with a 5" barrel. Calibers in other than .40S&W are not allowed and raised rib barrels other than 5" are not allowed. This configuration will only be allowed on wide body guns, as this is how SV produced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Can anyone explain then how Leathem shooting a Springfield widebody .40 is legal when AFAIK Springfield doesn't sell such an animal to the public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markcic Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Can anyone explain then how Leathem shooting a Springfield widebody .40 is legal when AFAIK Springfield doesn't sell such an animal to the public? Springfield does sell one to the public. You can get the GI .45 in a widebody and you can get Robbie's gun through the custom shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Can anyone explain then how Leathem shooting a Springfield widebody .40 is legal when AFAIK Springfield doesn't sell such an animal to the public? Yeah...I can. (maybe) One point, they do sell it to the public as I understand it, but they put the parts together through their custom shop. And, they do sell runs of the double stack gun too (though they always seem to be 5in 45's). 16. Any complete handgun or components produced by a factory and available to the general public for one year and 500 produced. Prototypes are specifically not allowed. The key words, in my mind are "or components". Are there 500 factory produced 6 inch slides? Does caliber matter? (Last I saw, Leatham's gun sported and STI slide.) Is all that consistent? Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 As long as its a copy of an approved model you should be ok. What with the current STI/SVI patent running out in Feb of next year you might be seeing a lot of STI/SVI type frames showing up just like you see a lot of 1911 type frames available (Patent # 5293708). Actually I think that one expires in 2012. 20 years from file date in 1992 or 17 years from grant date in 1995, whichever is longer for pre-1995 patent applications. I'm pretty sure an identical copy of something that exists in the 500+ number would be allowed.. historically they have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrShooter Posted October 25, 2007 Author Share Posted October 25, 2007 I'm pretty sure an identical copy of something that exists in the 500+ number would be allowed.. historically they have been. I think that this is the question in play. I don't think a homemade version of a regular configuration or of the "Sight Tracker" would be a "prototype" as that term is usually used. So is a home-made part functionally equivalent to a part that is from a run of 500+ OK? Obviously, the rule is there to keep out "surprise" prototypes that convey a competitive advantage and probably not there to keep a person from making his own "standard" parts. Yet, it seems to by the letter of the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Run it up to NROI. The wording of the rules states "by a factory" and 500 produced and such. But, this is one rule that I see called by the seat of the pants a bit. So, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Run it up to NROI. The wording of the rules states "by a factory" and 500 produced and such. But, this is one rule that I see called by the seat of the pants a bit. So, who knows? Yeah, I've seen a couple comments by Amidon to the effect of "it's identical to XYZ legal part, so it's legal". Nobody is checking who made how many of whatever barrel or slide or magwell or mainspring housing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 The rules seem to be pretty clear that you can't make your own gun parts, mentioning factories, public availability, and at least 500 produced. However, other rules that seemed clear to me have turned out to be otherwise after hearing from our Area Directors, et al. on this forum. So I put it to you all:If I made a functionally equivalent copy of a, say STI, frame and built a pistol around it, would it be legal in USPSA Limited? Am I understanding everybody correctly? I just took delivery on a 6" 38 super using a Caspian slide, and an old Colt frame intending on using it for steel and Limited 10. The proposed 2008 rules were changed from 500 guns and/or parts by a mfg to just 500 guns. I was worried that this meant my custom "parts" gun would not be legal after the rule was in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Regarding the legality of making your own gun at home, I found a letter on BATFE's own site stating its perfectly legal provided your state allow you to own a gun of that type: LINK TO ALCOHOL TOBACCO AND FIREARMS .GOV PAGE or just got to: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrShooter Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 I submitted this question to NROI, copying a link to this thread. Hopefully, we'll get some official guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 The rules seem to be pretty clear that you can't make your own gun parts, mentioning factories, public availability, and at least 500 produced. However, other rules that seemed clear to me have turned out to be otherwise after hearing from our Area Directors, et al. on this forum. So I put it to you all:If I made a functionally equivalent copy of a, say STI, frame and built a pistol around it, would it be legal in USPSA Limited? Am I understanding everybody correctly? I just took delivery on a 6" 38 super using a Caspian slide, and an old Colt frame intending on using it for steel and Limited 10. The proposed 2008 rules were changed from 500 guns and/or parts by a mfg to just 500 guns. I was worried that this meant my custom "parts" gun would not be legal after the rule was in place. coldchar, I don't think that will prove to be the case with the new rules (when they come out). They are still going to include the phrase "or components". My take is that your 6in gun in Super will be legal...but, I'm jut a guy with a keyboard. I'd bump that up the chain of command if I wanted better info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrShooter Posted November 6, 2007 Author Share Posted November 6, 2007 I got the reply via email from the DNROI: I believe that if an individual makes an exact copy, it should be allowed. John Amidon VP USPSA Director NROI Thanks John! So, that's probably as good as we are going to get until there is a protest and an official ruling is necessary. Hey you homebrewers, get out there and win a major tournament in Limited or Limited-10! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Ok, we have people already making sighttrackers with sti frames, and caspian high caps are starting to show up again, and by the way as far as producing 500 of a gun, when has caspian ever produced a finished gun of any caliber. Yes I know they have been producing all of the parts but they have never produced a finished gun. Not that it really natters because 1911's are 1911's and widebodys are widebodys it doesnt matter who makes them. I have only seen and shot 1 sti trusight but the thing is legal as far as uspsa is concerned and thats ok to, but if sti has produced 500 of those I would have seen more than 1 in my area as this is a heavy fat gun state. Unless the frame being copied is made of some exotic material that gives the gun mystical powers that allow it to shoot only a's with.07 splits onstantly and the shooter using it doesnt even need to know how to use it then I would let thm play in whatever division the gun was designed for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 I believe that if an individual makes an exact copy, it should be allowed.John Amidon VP USPSA Director NROI He's the DNROI and he says "I believe" and "should"?!?! He needs to say "yes " or "no"!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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