The Top Three Factors

[The Barrister]

I am completely new to shooting and hooked but have come up against some obstacles already. These are particularly in relation to the choice of shotgun to buy. As I live in the UK, I have the benefit of not needing to make a hasty decision because of the need to get my licence first… but I would like to tap into your collective expertise for some help. I am struggling to make sense of the wealth of information available on these exceedingly knowledgeable threads. Each issue I look at has so many variables to consider, most of which I don’t even understand.

So….Here is the factual matrix:

- I am a petite 5’4” at less than 120 lbs;

- Very dominant right hand;

- Very dominant left eye.

I would like to eventually shoot clays competitively and regularly (realistically, weekly to fortnightly) and birds in season (monthly).

Factors that have already made themselves obvious to me are:

- Recoil.

- Problems with peripheral vision shooting sporting clays in the field, but not at the range with taped glasses.

- Muscle fatigue handling a 7lb gun for more than an hour.

So the questions I have are:

1. Eye Dominance

(i) What remedial approaches are there to eye dominance given the ambitions I have?

(ii) Is it ever too late to step back and become a left handed shooter?

(iii) Do I adopt a different technique to address eye dominance at the range than in the field?

2. Physical Constraints

(i) How can I remain competitive with men if I start off with the obvious disadvantage of shooting 20 bores versus their 12 bores in terms of spread of the shot?

(ii) Is it better to stick with the 20 bore with a specialist cartridge that gives wider spread or go down to a lightweight 12 bore and risk recoil?

(iii) If there is a specialist cartridge (and I’m only assuming that there must be!) – are there competition rules that prevent me from using them?

Can anyone speculate on the TOP THREE FACTORS to consider when buying your first shotgun?

Edited October 4, 2007 by The Barrister

[tightloop]

I will try to answer most of them for you..

1. Try an autoloading 12 gauge..gas guns recoil less

2. That way you can shoot a lighter gun without the recoil killing you

3. The rules in Clays is different than pistols...you shoot with both eyes open in either sport but you can put a piece of scotch tape over the left eye and just shoot that way...no problem

4. Better to keep shooting right handed than go to square one and learn left handed.

5. The chokes for 20 spread the same as a 12...just the density of pellets is greater in 12 because it throws more shot to start with.

6. There are no specialty loads that do what you are asking...

7. Start doing exercises to strengthen your upper body and arms...that will help a lot

8. Start with a 20 ga and after you have shot a bit, try a 12 again..you will be more used to recoil and be stronger then...

9. DON'T spend lots of $$ on your first shotgun...you will have several before you finslly find the right one for you.

a. Start with a factory gun that has a stock short enough to make it comfortable to shoulder and shoot..

b. Shoot it a year, minimum

c. Don't worry about scores against guys that will come later

d. After a year of shooting and lessons, LESSONS, LESSONS... you will better understand what you need and want

e. You are very competitive, but just have fun and learn the first yr.

f. Get a copy of the Chokes and Loads tape from OSP shooting...Gill and Vicki Ash...it will tell you lots about what you need concerning loads and chokes for clays

g. Learn the fundamentals...it all comes down to that...gun mount, reading the bird, how to establish lead...etc

h. Then, after you have that in the bag...have a gun fitted to your measurements...expensive...but very worth it..

i. Then buy the gun you like, O/U or whatever and have the stock corrected to your measurements...

j. Then you can kick some serious ass....

There is probably lots I have left out but this will get you started..PM me if you need more..

Tloop

[AlamoShooter]

Fatigue is not too much of a problem with some conditioning. My best student was 10 years old at the start in sporting.

a 20 is not so good If you can get light training loads 7/8 ox in a 12 will always pattern better than a 20

Win AA makes a great Light Recoil load 2 7/8 dram and even better to start the 2.5 dram

You can use it any competition.

Find a good coach that you are not related to in any way, The only thing that holds women back in shooting games is Responsibility a man will spend Too much $$ and more time to get better than a Lady will. Men will do irresponsible thing to get better. skip work , miss birthdays, ETC ETC the list is way too long.

The left hand thing. when I was learning teaching , I learned to shoot left hand I had a great Coach / Friend

I am left eye Right hand = I made it to Master I have more fun shooting Right hand , I give a few birds. I would rather stay home than put the dam tape on my glasses.

The tape is good, I trained my left eye to coast along when I called pull. If I had a left side bird = I turned my head just a bit more so the right eye could see around my big nose

Find a coach and get an instructor first while you are looking for a coach.

Buying your first gun = Spend the extra $$ and buy through the shooting club BUT you should be able to Try out the gun first. any respectable retailing club has loaner/ Demo guns

I like the Browning IO for cost and value but most of the guys here like the Bereta IF $3,000.00 does not sound like too much, look / try a nice 682 Bereta . If $1,800.00 sounds better try a Browning IO

Oh did I say get an Instructor & find a coach

The Autos have gotten real good too

You can get some Aerobic conditioning by taking every day items = Like a book in each hand and moving them like you were shooting a bird & or a baseball bat or a "dry" mop

How easy is it for you to get to the shooting club? Do other ladies shoot at the club. = Make your self look less attractive than they are and find out who they get lessons from.

Can you get out to shoot at least once or twice a week? =Learning takes three times a week, you can maintain at once a week.

Remember too = I may not know nothing

Jamie Foote

[JD45]

As you already know, one large factor in how you go about getting into this game has to do with how much money you are willing to spend.

If everyone had unlimited finances, they should start with a good instructor and a gun that has a custom fit. But not everyone can or chooses to spend that much up front.

So, for starters, just make sure that your stock is long enough to keep your thumb away from your nose. A half-inch too long is better than a half-inch too short in this game.

For your height and weight, assuming you are in fair health, you can probably shoot any gun you choose. I say this because I've seen a skinny 14yr. old girl shoot all-day like a champ with a heavy 30" Browning Citori. And she shoots hotter shells than I do.

However, a 12ga. Beretta 391, that is set-up to function 100% with a 1200fps 1oz. load will feel pretty soft.

No matter what gun you choose, shoot it at a pattern board at 16yds. and 40yds.. Make sure it doesn't shoot too high or low (if possible do this before you buy the gun).

[Irishlad]

IMHO, the first and foremost "obstacle" that has to be corrected before you do or buy anything is the left eye dominance/right handed. Meaning, the difference in "effective" pattern between the 12/20 and gun weight, which you can "work up to", are insignificant if your looking down the left side of the barrel.

The good news is you probably live in the best "country" to get that "corrected" and learn "clay shooting".

The options that I am aware of to correct the vision are: Some type of tape to "fool" the left eye, "cross-over" stock, shoot left-handed and I have "read" about some "sights/beads" that may help your right eye be "dominant".

If it were me, I'd determine with knowledgeable help, which of those methods work for me/you!

Unlikely the cross-over stock will be advised. Tape may help. It's not to late to shoot left-handed IMO.

The sights/bead sound interesting.

I'd google and ask around for the best "help" in your area. The rest will be fun and easy, i.e. what gun, gauge, STOCK-FIT which should be done at the same as the vision correction, etc.

Good luck.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Irishlad

[EricW]

Top three factors:

- Fit

- Ability to get it serviced and adjusted locally

- Fit

You've got it pretty easy in the UK because your folks invented shotgun fitting. I am in the same boat as you. I just bought lefty Beretta 682 Gold E. I absolutely love it. I paid more than I needed to because I think it looks cool. You could spend less and get just as good of a shotgun....maybe. Personally, I'm glad I shelled out because the balance is so good it's like it has built in radar. The right shotgun dramatically improved my scores.

Shooting lefty was less and more of a challenge than I thought it would be. Trap (American Trap) was ridiculously easy to adapt to. Skeet was harder.

And switching shoulders really only solves cross-dominance for things other than crossers. With crossing targets, you're going to have the issue regardless of what shoulder you're shooting. I have a lot easier time picking up and maintaining focus on R->L crossers than L->R because of the way my eyes work currently.

Tape over the glasses didn't help me at all. Your kilometerage may vary.

You may wish to talk to Vicki Ash of the OSP Shooting School in Texas. (http://www.ospschool.com) She is a champion Sporting shooter and she conquered cross-dominance. I think it comes down to a hell of a lot of work, not becoming frustrated, and telling the hecklers to piss off and leave you alone since they have no clue of what you're dealing with.

As for ammo, 7/8 oz 12 ga is your load. See if you can get a Beretta 391 and try the loads in that. That's about the lightest clays shotgun out there. If it cycles, that's your shotgun. You'll need to have the stock cut and may need to do some other fitting.

The only time you'll need "gamer" loads is for distant targets. Save your money and buy cheap for everything besides tournaments.

Edited October 5, 2007 by EricW

[JFD]

Tape over my glasses helped me quite a bit, but it has to be done all the time for a while, not just when shooting.

I had to combine that with shooting with my left eye closed or partially closed for a short time until it became natural.

You have to contort somewhat to shoot cross-dominant. After I started positioning/gripping the gun correctly (handgun), if I didn't pay attention to what I was doing I'd find myself looking at the left side of the gun instead of down the sights. A quick blink of the left eye would switch the focus back to the right eye.

It's not an easy thing to correct, not even close to easy.

[The Barrister]

This is the link to the fibre optics. I'm told they are the mutts nuts for dominance. Not only do they remedy the problem, but they also cure it at the same time.

http://www.tamarshootingground.co.uk/shop/...at&catId=15

As for semi-auto/gas: Afraid to say that when I asked around about this I was told never to even try to go on a game shoot with one. They might JUST let me get away with an O/U. Guys, this is England - The British Empire (as was) was founded on really crazy prejudices - and one hell of alot of recoil!!

Thanks for all your help. I am working through the advice. thanks for the links - really useful.

[EricW]

As for semi-auto/gas: Afraid to say that when I asked around about this I was told never to even try to go on a game shoot with one. They might JUST let me get away with an O/U. Guys, this is England - The British Empire (as was) was founded on really crazy prejudices - and one hell of alot of recoil!!

Well...there *is* a safety factor in using a break-action for hunting. I've gone over to an O/U for all upland birds because of the security.

HOWEVER, tell those clueless limey Nancy boys that if they don't let you hunt with an O/U that they are cordially invited to the US to learn how to bird hunt. We don't do any of that driven bird nonsense over here. I will drag their asses on a hunt that will wear their silver spoons right down to the nub.

[Irishlad]

Good "deal" on the fiber optics. It would be interesting to know if it works for you!

As you probably know, there are several "devices" for stocks that are helpful in reducing recoil, particularly for fixed breech guns.

All include some type of "shock-absorbing" butt plate and/or comb that will lesson the "blow".

English made ISIS systems, Danuser, Gra-coil, for example. Might be worth a look to "tame" the fixed breech.

Good luck.

[The Barrister]

As for semi-auto/gas: Afraid to say that when I asked around about this I was told never to even try to go on a game shoot with one. They might JUST let me get away with an O/U. Guys, this is England - The British Empire (as was) was founded on really crazy prejudices - and one hell of alot of recoil!!

Well...there *is* a safety factor in using a break-action for hunting. I've gone over to an O/U for all upland birds because of the security.

HOWEVER, tell those clueless limey Nancy boys that if they don't let you hunt with an O/U that they are cordially invited to the US to learn how to bird hunt. We don't do any of that driven bird nonsense over here. I will drag their asses on a hunt that will wear their silver spoons right down to the nub.

I'll just put those Nancy boys straight onto you. It will sound sooooo much better in an American accent.

Don't you Drive birds? All walked up Stateside??

Edited October 7, 2007 by The Barrister

[EricW]

I'll just put those Nancy boys straight onto you. It will sound sooooo much better in an American accent.

Don't you Drive birds? All walked up Stateside??

Driven birds are exceedingly rare here. There are some people in the northeast who like to dress up like 19th century English gentry and I think they drive birds, but here in America, we walk, hike, climb, etc. for them. It's a totally different culture and very blue collar compared to the UK.

The only reason I thought to mention it was that I had several spirited discussions on the subject of hunting with my English friends while skiing this spring. They thought we hunted here like the gentry there.

If you *really* get into hunting, you should have Z take you hunting for quail or doves in the southern US. That's real shooting. Driven pheasants are pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel.

Edited October 7, 2007 by EricW

[zhunter]

Driven pheasants are pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel.

+100 Not sporting in my opinion

[The Barrister]

I'll just put those Nancy boys straight onto you. It will sound sooooo much better in an American accent.

Don't you Drive birds? All walked up Stateside??

Driven birds are exceedingly rare here. There are some people in the northeast who like to dress up like 19th century English gentry and I think they drive birds, but here in America, we walk, hike, climb, etc. for them. It's a totally different culture and very blue collar compared to the UK.

The only reason I thought to mention it was that I had several spirited discussions on the subject of hunting with my English friends while skiing this spring. They thought we hunted here like the gentry there.

If you *really* get into hunting, you should have Z take you hunting for quail or doves in the southern US. That's real shooting. Driven pheasants are pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel.

To be fair to your North Easterners, they are still waiting for someone to tell them that we were a bit upset about all that tea going to waste!!!

I did have a minor incident with one of the landed gentry yesterday in the gun-shop. They can be really ODIOUS. Shooting is a seriously elite pursuit... and clay shooters are looked down on. WHO CARES!?

I think it would be an excellent idea for Z to take me hunting stateside!!

[EricW]

It will sound sooooo much better in an American accent.

BTW, we talk normal. You have the accent.

And going on a stateside safari with Z. Now there would be an adventure for you.

Edited October 7, 2007 by EricW

[J-Ho]

I'll just put those Nancy boys straight onto you. It will sound sooooo much better in an American accent.

Don't you Drive birds? All walked up Stateside??

Driven birds are exceedingly rare here. There are some people in the northeast who like to dress up like 19th century English gentry and I think they drive birds, but here in America, we walk, hike, climb, etc. for them. It's a totally different culture and very blue collar compared to the UK.

The only reason I thought to mention it was that I had several spirited discussions on the subject of hunting with my English friends while skiing this spring. They thought we hunted here like the gentry there.

If you *really* get into hunting, you should have Z take you hunting for quail or doves in the southern US. That's real shooting. Driven pheasants are pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel.

To be fair to your North Easterners, they are still waiting for someone to tell them that we were a bit upset about all that tea going to waste!!!

I did have a minor incident with one of the landed gentry yesterday in the gun-shop. They can be really ODIOUS. Shooting is a seriously elite pursuit... and clay shooters are looked down on. WHO CARES!?

I think it would be an excellent idea for Z to take me hunting stateside!!

Clayshooters being looked down upon by hunters. WOW there's a bit of a change for you.

[tightloop]

As for semi-auto/gas: Afraid to say that when I asked around about this I was told never to even try to go on a game shoot with one. They might JUST let me get away with an O/U. Guys, this is England - The British Empire (as was) was founded on really crazy prejudices - and one hell of alot of recoil!!

Well...there *is* a safety factor in using a break-action for hunting. I've gone over to an O/U for all upland birds because of the security.

HOWEVER, tell those clueless limey Nancy boys that if they don't let you hunt with an O/U that they are cordially invited to the US to learn how to bird hunt. We don't do any of that driven bird nonsense over here. I will drag their asses on a hunt that will wear their silver spoons right down to the nub.

I'll just put those Nancy boys straight onto you. It will sound sooooo much better in an American accent.

Don't you Drive birds? All walked up Stateside??

Yep, we work for our birds here in the states...

But like the joke goes...the brother who lived in S. Texas has his brother visit him who lives in Georgia...they are going to hunt quail...as they are riding down the dusty trail in the pickup the Tx brother spots a covey of blue quail running down the trail...he immediately bails out of the truck grabbing his shotgun as he goes...the Georgia brother yells at him..."..you aren't going to shoot them like that, are you?"

The Tx brother yells back..."..hell no, I'm going to wait till they stop running..."

Let it be known, that if you can shoot clays, birds will not give you many problems..

[EricW]

Clayshooters being looked down upon by hunters. WOW there's a bit of a change for you.

Only because shooting live birds is even more expensive than shooting clays. It's a "well, if that's the best you can do" deal.