Level II matches...

[sargenv]

I had a split popper at a level 3 match recently.. but it was not a scoring target. I used it as a steel hard cover. It was immediately in front of two side by side USP's. It was kind of an evil trick, but there were a few people who put extra shots downrange due to that item. I agree though, unless it's an approved item, it should not be included on a level 2 or 3 match, period.

[Ron Ankeny]

I knew the vast majority of shooters would vote in favor of a Level II requirement, but not even one vote for Level I? Wow.

[shred]

I don't think multiple colors for steel are legal at any level of USPSA match.

Our club's Range Master checked this w/ Amidon a while back, cause an MD wanted to run a themed match, and have poppers of different (solid) colors. The ruling was that, as long as each piece of steel was of a solid color, you were ok. In a given stage with 12 different steel targets, you could have 12 different colors, as long as each target was only painted a single color.

Obviously, it can look a bit cheesy But.... you can have different colored steel as long as they're not, like, polka dotted or barber poled or whatever....

The last World Shoot varied the color they painted the steel on a per-stage basis.. some stages had yellow steel, some stages had red steel, some blue. That worked to improve the look but yet not make the stages look like refugees from the 70's.

[ipscbob]

If Ron makes this a poll, I would vote for all rules at ALL levels. I understand that there are some club facility constraints but that is not what I am considering here. I am thinking solely about the shooter. I would guess that we develop our personal game almost totally in practice and level 1 matches. To allow excursions from the rules is just not fair to the shooters. Training consciously or unconsciously to do things that will not be allowed at a higher level is just bad juju. If it is called a USPSA match, run it by the rules. If you want to do something else, go for it and have fun, just don't call it a USPSA match!

Later,

Chuck

I agree with Chuck on this. ALL matches, regardless of level, that claim USPSA affiliation should comply with USPSA rules. I would vote for removing the level 1 exemption from the rule book in a heartbeat. It is abused too much at our locals here in California in ways that have nothing to do with facility restraints.

[dubletap]

If Ron makes this a poll, I would vote for all rules at ALL levels. I understand that there are some club facility constraints but that is not what I am considering here. I am thinking solely about the shooter. I would guess that we develop our personal game almost totally in practice and level 1 matches. To allow excursions from the rules is just not fair to the shooters. Training consciously or unconsciously to do things that will not be allowed at a higher level is just bad juju. If it is called a USPSA match, run it by the rules. If you want to do something else, go for it and have fun, just don't call it a USPSA match!

Later,

Chuck

I agree, if you run your matches outside the rules you hurt your club shooters who shoot at other venues. You also run the risk of having to throw stages out even at the club level. At a recent match at a club that is known to be a bit loose on adhering to the rules as far as stage design, a stage had two different windows, you could start at either window. The COF was one shot on each target, mandatory reload, one shot on each. "Then move to opposite window and repeat. Virginia count."

Our squad was a visiting squad and made up of mostly shooters who attend Area, State, Nationals and World shoots frequently. We were the last squad on the stage and were tasked with tearing the stage down once we shot it. We shot the stage the only legal way as it was written, two strings. We turn in our score cards and notice that the stats person is adding our times together, we ask why and she says that we weren't supposed to shoot it as two strings, everyone else (local club squads), shot it as one string. We let the stats person know that just adding the times wouldn't work because our squads times would be 2-3 seconds faster without the transition time between positions and wouldn't be fair to the other shooters. Unfortunately the stage was torn down by this time and the stage had to be thrown out.

This made the MD a bit peeved that here is a visiting squad causing a stage to be tossed, "after all it's just a club match and doesn't have to comply with the rules". As I read US1.1.5.1 it doesn't say that Level 1 doesn't have to comply with the rules, it has a narrow focus that round count and freestyle don't have to be strickly complied with. It doesn't say that you can mandate a reload in a field course and make it Virginia count. And I know they didn't set out to violate the rules, they just don't set a priority on knowing or adhering to them because it's "just a club match".

I agree US1.1.5.1 is abused and not understood and it only hurts shooters, especially those who spend big bucks to go to a big match.

Edited September 12, 2007 by dubletap

[kimel]

I have seen local matches that even think US1.1.5.1 extends so far as to negate the safety rules (distance to steel targets and the like). People just seem to hear "exemption" and think that means you toss the rulebook out.

It would be interesting to see exactly what the entire mythos that surrounds US1.1.5.1 really is nationwide. Scary, but interesting. Wonder how many folks in the US are reading 1.1.5.1 and not noticing the US version?

The results of the poll certainly are interesting. Area Directors, did y'all take note? Too late to make one last change in the 2008 rules?

[Flexmoney]

Our lead dogs have no desire to clean and/or clarify the L-I exemption. Everytime i've tried to fish those waters...I couldn't even get my line wet. Heck, I think they'd rather got the other direction and give them more leeway.

I think they fear losing clubs more than they care about progressing the nature of our sport.

...my two cents, anyway.

[3 gun]

As a guy who doesn't mind a little roadtrip, I've gotten to the point if it isn't at least a L3 match I won't go. As for the local stuff I usually try and just go with the flow until we get to safety and the CM stage, if they have one. They must be by the book.

I figure it's hard enough getting clubs to hold matches, they don't need a rulebook nazi giving them grief over minor things. On the flip side I will say something "off the record" in a polite way. I figure odd targets and props just make the legal stuff that much easier when it's all said and done.

[Alan Meek]

When a club affiliates with USPSA they agree to run USPSA matches per the USPSA Rule Book. If they run NRA matches do they follow the NRA Rule Book?

It is not that difficult to run USPSA matches per the rules. Actually you will have a lot less heartache and stress as the MD/RM.

I am a participant in USPSA matches because of the USPSA Rules, I will not attend a match that has their own local rules. I have attended them in the past and I have no desire to again.

Alan

[professor]

The 2008 rulebook does away with the blanket exception currently used to allow just about anything at L1 matches. The new 1.5.1.1 states:

1.1.5.1 Local matches may use shooting boxes and specify where/when specific target arrays may be

engaged. Long courses may exceed the 32 round limit. Mandatory reloads are allowed in short

and medium courses only, never in a long course.

Those are the only exceptions allowed for Level I matches. Every match, including Level I matches, must adhere to all of the other rules of USPSA shooting. Appendix A1, 01. spells this out. For all levels of matches, Local, State/Sectional, and Area/Nationals, it is Mandatory that the match "Must follow latest edition USPSA rules."

[wide45]

Won't make any difference.

The people not following rules, won't change because of more rules.

Edited September 16, 2007 by wide45

[Ron Ankeny]

1.1.5.1 Local matches may use shooting boxes and specify where/when specific target arrays may be

engaged. Long courses may exceed the 32 round limit. Mandatory reloads are allowed in short

and medium courses only, never in a long course.

So at a "state championship match" a stage could consist of half a dozen boxes on the ground with half a dozen hoser arrays of eight rounds each for a total of 48 rounds and be good to go. Pardon me, but that's just BS.

[Nik Habicht]

1.1.5.1 Local matches may use shooting boxes and specify where/when specific target arrays may be

engaged. Long courses may exceed the 32 round limit. Mandatory reloads are allowed in short

and medium courses only, never in a long course.

So at a "state championship match" a stage could consist of half a dozen boxes on the ground with half a dozen hoser arrays of eight rounds each for a total of 48 rounds and be good to go. Pardon me, but that's just BS.

Yeah, but you can't put it on the USPSA match calendar.....

...it's got to be a Level 2, with NROI stage approval, if I read that correctly.....

[ipscbob]

Nice! No more excuses

[Ron Ankeny]

Yeah, but you can't put it on the USPSA match calendar.....

Doesn't matter if it's on the calendar. The match could still be billed as a state match, non-members could attend, typical abuses of the Level One exclusions could exist, etc. Oh well, if that's what the USPSA leadership wants to allow, so be it.

[Nik Habicht]

Yeah, but you can't put it on the USPSA match calendar.....

Doesn't matter if it's on the calendar. The match could still be billed as a state match, non-members could attend, typical abuses of the Level One exclusions could exist, etc. Oh well, if that's what the USPSA leadership wants to allow, so be it.

Yup --- just as a match could go throw the Level 2 process, and then still decide that it's too much effort to build, etc.

I'm not sure I get where you're going with this --- no amount of rulemaking or legislating is ever going to ensure a quality match on the ground, that's always going to depend on a group of talented and dedicated individuals, who want to put on the best match possible, while learning from the experience, so that the match after this one cab be even better.....

[Ron Ankeny]

I'm not sure I get where you're going with this --- no amount of rulemaking or legislating is ever going to ensure a quality match on the ground, that's always going to depend on a group of talented and dedicated individuals, who want to put on the best match possible, while learning from the experience, so that the match after this one cab be even better.....

You just went where I was going. Ignoring all the drift for the moment. It's pretty obvious the vast majority of shooters want a State Match and higher to be a Level II for various reasons. I would like to see such a requirement just as an assurance that the match would at least follow the tenants of freestyle, a balance of long/short/medium courses, and so forth.

Oddly enough, I shot a club match in Wyoming yesterday and the topic came up again. I had a couple of guys tell me they recently attended a state match where several stages were nothing more than abuses of Level One exemptions apparantly just to drive the round count up for the hosers. Other stages didn't even attempt to allow freestyle. On the positive side I hear the match was very well run and fun. I guess in the end the fun factor trumps the rule book.

[driver8M3]

does anyone know the purpose/origin of the round count exemption? i dont mind higher round count stages at all, but what's the purpose of the exemption? i'm not even sure i completely understand what the exemption covers? total round count for a stage (32 rounds)? rounds per position (9)? the 3:2:1 balance? all of the above???

i can understand the freestyle exemption b/c that makes stages a lot easier to build for a club with limited resources. how does the round count exemption make things easier, if that's the purpose?

[Alan Meek]

The round count exemption was to allow clubs with a limited number of bays/stages to be able to increase their overall round count. (of course I might be wrong)

As an example the club I started at only had enough bays to shoot four stages. So if you put a classifier that traditionaly is a low round count stage and then put three 32 round stages you would be looking at a match with ~120rds. It seems USPSA shooters want local matches to have a total rd count between 150 and 200 for a local match.

Alan

[Nik Habicht]

I guess in the end the fun factor trumps the rule book.

Ron,

market forces at work? I'm not nuts about state level, oh for that matter local matches, going off the reservation, whether they do it via the level 1 exemption, or some other way. I'm also not the customer or the match director at every match in the country --- and my style probably leans more toward education and counseling, than it does toward strong arming people. Is there a Section Coordinator overseeing this match? Has anyone had a conversation with the people putting on the match? Volunteered to help them out? Or am I missing the "Montana is too large for that to effectively happen" boat?

[Flexmoney]

Here is the fence.

On one side, we want to run perfect matches..completely by the book...freestyle.

On the other side, we want to give the "local club" some leeway to run matches how they see fit.

[Ron Ankeny]

and my style probably leans more toward education and counseling, than it does toward strong arming people

I too hate to strong arm people. That's obvious from my posts in some of the "rip the stages apart to teach them a lesson" threads that pop up from time to time. Here's the bottom line. I don't want to drive across the country and dump a bunch of coin into meals and lodging to shoot courses box to box, memory courses like shoot these here, those there, reload then go over there, and so forth. I also don't want to spend money to shoot a match only to have stages thrown out as soon as some one protests. When we resurrected the Wyoming State Match, Bruce really went out of his way to help us get things off the ground and we spoke about shooting at Level One to allow non-members a taste and to recruit new members. It worked and we indeed got new members. Even though we shot Level I, we followed Level II requirements to the letter with the exception of USPSA membership. The agreement was it would be a one shot deal.

Here is the fence.

On one side, we want to run perfect matches..completely by the book...freestyle.

On the other side, we want to give the "local club" some leeway to run matches how they see fit.

Yup, and I have no problem with that those who ride the fence or jump from one side to the other at the local level. At anything higher than the local level, I think the poll is pretty clear. Thanks to those who participated. For now, I am going to shut up and shoot. See you at the range.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Ron Ankeny