Shooting Around A Barricade...

[Ron Ankeny]

Here's a pretty straight forward stage that we shot yesterday. I thought maybe some of the less experienced shooters on the forum would like to hear how the forum regulars would shoot this.

The starting position was with both hands placed on the front of the barricade. At the signal, the shooter was required to shoot the targets on one side of the barricade or the other, perform a mandatory reload and shoot the remaining side. All of the targets on both sides of the barricade were placed well to the sides of the center line and it wasn’t much of a lean (virtually none for me at 6’3”) around either side. All steel was at 12-13 yards, T3 was at about 8, and T4 was at approximately 5 yards. The turner was only 7-8 yards and it activated slowly because the activator had to be all of the way down to trip the lever. Once activated it fell lightening fast. I am sure the speed at which it dropped influenced a lot of shooters, but I think the speed at which it activates is much more important.

I shot the right side first, USP2, USP3, T3, T4. I almost always shoot around a barricade “as they appear”. I chose the opposite engagement order because I could see USP2 clearly from the starting position and it was comfortable to draw to that target. I wanted to shoot the low targets first, then take the T3 and T4 because I can speed up and index to the higher, closer targets much easier than I can go from warp drive down to a small lower distant target. I also did not want to end the array on steel.

I hit a pretty decent reload and went to the other side. I shot USP1 first, then the activator PP1, T1, and then finished on turner T2. I had to wait a bit for T2 to turn because it hung up a bit. The RO even remarked that I got robbed a little bit. This looked to me like a no-brainer for those shooters who are fast enough to engage a target between the activator and the turner. I was just delighted with my time and score. It was awesome to be that “in the groove”.

For what it’s worth, most shooters shot the left side first in the same order that I described and then reloaded and shot the right side as the targets appear. They had some fairly decent reasoning. How would you shoot this and why?

[Jake Di Vita]

I would shoot it exactly how Ron described.

(I learned this from the OH State Champs last year). To start on the left side of the barricade would put most right hand dominant shooters in a awkward position. If you start on the left you would have to go into that position and then get out of it to complete the stage. This would yield the average person a nice chunk of time. I would definetely start on the right and finish on the left.

[lynn jones]

Ron,

i'd like to know which pp activated the turner (dissappearing?) first. i'd shoot the left side first, hitting the activating pp first, then t1, then the other pp, then the turner. time waits for no one.

reload into t4, t5, usp3, and usp2. shoot t4 first because it's the closest target.

lynn jones

[vluc]

As a production shooter, given the little I have been told of this stage, I would start left side first (I am a right handed shooter), outside to inside. I'd need to see the activation, etc to confirm what my final choice would be.

As I have to reload anyway and need to pull the gun in and turn to the opposite side to put in the magazine, T4 would appear first and I would take t4, t3 then the steel.

[shred]

Depending on the activating speed, as a middlin-A-Open lefty, I'd probably shoot the left side first, hit the activator popper before T1, then back to T2. Reload and take the other side as they come visible-- probably start w/T4 unless the USP's were wide open with no leaning. I'm not super-keen on drawing to a USP, but I'm even less keen on leaving on one to a reload.

I might also consider for the left side (assuming PP1 is the activator):

If the activator is extra fast: Draw to PP1, USP, back to T2, leave on T1.

If the activator is very slow: Draw to PP1, T1, USP, T2

[Ron Ankeny]

Lynn:

Popper PP1 activates the disappearing drop turner and it was about 13 yards away as was USP1. Shooting the activator then the static target and a small popper before the drop turner is a pretty ambitious task. I thought about it, but didn't try it because I didn't "know" that I could do it. BTW, my time was 7.15 seconds with 58 points.

I would also be interested to know how you guys would shoot the right side and how many of you would shoot near to far (high to low - big to small). For me, it is a lot faster to take the tough shots (which are also lower) first, then shift into hyper drive.

[Flexmoney]

Good topic...with a lot of good points being made.

As a right hand shooter, I agree with Jake. I don't like getting into a position on the left side of a barricade, then having to come back out of it. Ron stated those tartgets were easy to see, so maybe getting into and out of the position wouldn't be such a big deal.

In that case...I'd think about that video that Nolan posted where he didn't nail his reload (he called it a blown reload, but I did lots worse this past weekend). Nolan reloaded going from the left side of a barricade to the right side. In so doing, he was moving the gun away fronm the mag during the reload. Going from the right side to the left, the gun and mag would be coming together. Could help.

So, I would shoot the right side first.

I would have a hard time not starting on the paper at 5 yards and shooting outside-in. Ron brings up a great point though...going from the easier targets to the harder targets is tough. Changing gears, from fast to accurate, is a shooting challenge that I often try to get designed into stages.

On the left side...I go for brass ring. From Ron's description, the DT activates slow (but moves fast). I'd have to see it, but I think I would go for it. So, activator, paper, USP, DT.

[Flexmoney]

Ok...gonna play with the number some.

Ron shot 58 points in 7.15. A hit factor of 8.111

For the sake of comparison, lets say he shot it clean. So 60 points in 7.15 = 8.391hf.

All other things being equal. If a shooter goes for the activator first, an d makes it...they save the time it takes for a transition. I am gonna call this transition savings 0.40 (I just think that is what it would work out to...though true transition times vary.) So, that would be 60 points in 6.75 second, a hit factor of 8.888.

The difference is just under 95%...or, 60 stages points compared to 56.638.

Worth the chance of missing the drop-turner?

Let see. If you missed the DT, you'd only get 50 points. You would save a back-n-forth swing, a transition and a split. From 7.15...subtract .40 for the transition, .15 for the split, and a .10 for teh back-n-forth (There might be some more savings from engaging the large popper first in the array, instead on the mini.) Lets call it. 50 points in 6.50 = 7.692 hf. Which is 91.669% of the safer hit factor (8.391)...or 60 points compared to 55.

So, you're five points up if you make the DT, and five points down if you don't get to it. (I might have to try to hit the activator low and go for it )

[TDean]

(Right handed shooter)

Draw, engage T4,T3,USP3,USP2

(right to left engagement, NPA adjusted to T4 with no more than a 1.15 first shot, then index to T3 without ever really seeing the sights (using NPA and index), attempt to actually see the front sight on USP3 and 4)

-Reload-

PP1,T1,USP1,TURNER

(if turner is just too quick)

T1,PP1,USP1,TURNER

(but if the top dogs are hitting the activator first, I'm doing it too)

I think on this stage, points will be the determining factor.

Most top guys would probably do it in 5.5 to 6 sec and dropping no more than 2-3pts.

What were the best times Ron?

[Ron Ankeny]

TDean:

Actually, I had the best time even though the drop turner hung up. We didn't have any hot shots in attendance (Sam you gotta come show us how to do this). I could have shot this faster if I would have risked shooting all three targets before the drop turner. Having the drop turner hang up didn't help. I don't know how much time I lost on the turner because my sense of time becomes warped when I shoot. The RO told me it took quite a while, but I doubt it was even a second.

Lynn:

I considered shooting the stage as you describe but I opted to shoot the steel first on the right side. I know I could reload or draw to the close outside paper on the right side the fastest, but I think it is a wash because my transitions from low to high and far to near are faster than the other way around. My "tool box" probably isn't as full as yours at this point in my development.

I think there are some good lessons here for new shooters. Even on a simple stage like this, each person who has posted has formulated a plan based upon a fairly intimate knowledge of their ability and shooting preferences. Having a plan based upon the knowledge of what we can do on demand is what allows us to manifest our current ability in a match. Having plan and knowing what we can do reduces tension, calms the nerves, and allows us to open up to observe the shooting as it happens while we just drive the pistol. I am no GM shooter, but a plan (even if slightly flawed), beats uncertainty any day.

[Phil Dunlop]

Another reason to shoot the right hand side first and inside out is it creates more room to do the reload, without costing you anything.

Its hard to be certain, but on the information given I would also activate first, though I've noticed when I'm on auto pilot, the plan is often overwritten with the simpler one of shooting what you see first, USP1.

P.D.

[kimel]

Hmmm...sooooo...pardon the thread drift but it was mentioned that the drop turner "hung up a bit". Enough so that the RO noticed it. Was this enough to declare range equipment failure? Yeah, I know...you always do worse on re-shoots, it was a club match so no big deal, yada yada yada.

So, my question is really more of an academic question wondering where that line between "shjt happens" and "range equipment failure" exists.

If it hung up for everyone the same, then no big deal.

However, if it hung up a half second and you were waiting for it to go, then you lost that half second. Reworking things with a 6.65 second time and your HF goes to 8.722 instead of 8.111 (assuming I punched the calulator buttons correctly).

BTW...great thread idea. I would like to see more of this sort of thing.

[Ron Ankeny]

kimel:

I wondered about the question of a reshoot too. I almost stopped, but then I chose to engage the target. The weather was turning sour and I shot it fast enough that I knew I had all of the stage points so why bother? I have an RO class in a couple of weeks and I'll bring it up then and send you an e-mail.

Moderator:

I suppose we have about beaten this horse to death so feel free to close the thread unless someone has something to add.

[ErikW]

If I were feeling like hot shit I'd go for the close partial first only if there wasn't a big drop to the US poppers with iron sights. If I were not feeling confident I wouldn't want to leave on the steel. (Nor would I want to draw to that partial; being unconfident sucks!)

And again, feeling confident, because he said it activates slowly: PP, paper, USP, drop-turner. If not so slowly, PP, USP, paper, drop turner. If you aren't sure you can get two Alphas on the DT, or if you'll end up waiting for it, change your plan. On these low round count speed shoots you have to get two As, and quickly. You can't say, oh well I missed it, they're only circle mikes.

For sure you draw to the array on your holster side.