Help. Reloaded .45ACP not dropping into 625 cyclinder.

[DCMshooter]

I'm new to reloading. I have a Dillon 650 with all Dillon dies, took lots of time to set it up right. And have been quite pleased with the results. However, I have a little problem that I can't figure out.

I have a S&W 625 revolver. I load up moon clips with factory Remington UMC .45 ACP and they drop right in and I close the cylinder and fire away. I've been collecting the brass for a few months, finally got all my reloading equipment and went to town. Problem is, when I put my reloads in the moon clips (plastic Rimz) they don't want to drop right in; I need to push them to seat them all the way. The bind to the cyclinder and I have to give a good push the ejector rod to get them out (with and with out firing). This doesn't happen with factory ammo.

Here are some specs:

Remington brass (once fired, was tumbled in Lyman treated corn cob media for about 5 hours, did not trim)

Rainier Copper plated 230 grain RN

Cartridge lengths before loading (average) 0.890.

O.A.L is 1.265"

diameter at neck is 0.468"

diameter midway down case is 0.468"

diameter at base above the taper to the rim is 0.473"

At first I though that I didn't crimp enough to straighten out the belling. So I adjusted the crimp die a bit. That didn't help. the cartridges always get down about 3/4 to 7/8 of the way into the cylinder before the stick. I have to push them in maybe the final 1/8". I don't have a case gauge yet, but one is being shipped as we speak.

Thanks for any help,

Chris

[ewokUk]

I'm new to reloading as well & had the same problem.

I was using 185 gn LRN & new remington brass. Initially everything went OK but I started getting problems after I increased the crimp. This seemed to bulge the case around the bullet. I changed to a Lee factory crimp die & this improved things, but not 100% untill I backed off the crimp a bit.

HTH

Ewok

[yoshidaex]

a case gauge will help weed out the suspect rounds. If your sizer/decapper is adjusted properly and you still have problems, a Lee/EGW undersize die might be in order. I crimp to .471 and have no problems. Is it possible the rimz moonclip might be part of the problem?

[enoon]

Completely coat the brass on a moonclip of loaded rounds with a "Magic Marker" or something similar and carefully (to avoid marking the brass by scraping the chamber mouths) load the cylinder. Maybe press the moonclip in a little. Maybe put it in several times (carefully maintaining alignment). Then look for marks where there is binding.

Or lay a straight edge along side a loaded round and see where there are high and low spots. Mark and measure the high spots.

Also you can chamber the rounds without putting them into moonclips (eject by pushing out with a pencil or dowel). Then you will at least know whether it is the ammo that does not fit the chambers or whether it takes some combination of the ammo & moonclips.

[Jman]

What yoshidaex said. I too would be looking seriously at a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

[RePete]

I reload for my 625 using Dillon dies, and don't see the need for the Lee undersize die.

I have had the odd problem but that was with old brass.

[Carmoney]

OK -- this has happened to several of us recently, to the point I am now convinced there is a bad batch of cylinders installed in a run of fairly recent 625-8s. On these guns, some of the chambers seem to be slightly undersized, or perhaps out of round, to the point that any ammo that is even the tiniest bit oversized will hang up. Take some of your reloads and try dropping them loose into the charge holes--I'll bet you find they will drop into some, and not into others.

There are at least three 625-8s in the hands of local shooters that are exhibiting this problem. Yesterday the UPS guy dropped off a Clymer cylinder finishing reamer, which should take care of the problem. I will post more after I confirm this.

[LPatterson]

Because of the decreased chamber tolerance of the 625 compared to my 8 1911's & clones I got the EGW U resize die & the brass measures .465 from web to mouth instead of the.476-.473 listed in my Lyman reloading manual. The internal case mouth is .445 with the lot of Starline brass I have & the powder die measure .449 before the bell. Additionally the extractor groove measures .494 with the Starline but .402 with Most of the Federal I measured. As for bullets Precision Delta's are .4515 with Armscor at .451, Berry's at .451-.452 & Montana Gold at .451.

What it amounts to is getting the right tolerances for the gun you have. The cylinders are polished & chamfered & the moons are T&K and I don't have any problems except when I try a hi-speed WH reload.

[G-ManBart]

The fact that it doesn't happen with factory ammo means it's the reloaded ammo. What you're describing sounds a lot like the scenario auto shooters run into with brass that's been shot in Glocks and other service guns that have slightly oversized chambers to increase feed reliability. The brass gets bulged at the bottom and normal dies can't remove all of that. Run a Lee/EGW Undersized die in your press or set up a single stage press and run all unknown brass through the U-die before adding it to your supply and I'll bet money you're going to be fine.

When I take once fired brass from my duty Glock and resize it with a Dillon die the case will only go about 3/4 of the way into a case gauge. Run that same case through a U-die and it drops through the gauge with no resistance.

[DCMshooter]

I did some range testing today.

First, I put about 150 rounds of the reloaded stuff through my Sprinfield Armory 1911. Not a single problem. Actually,it shot quite well.

Then I went to the 625. I only had two rounds that would not fit in the cylinder, they were both nickel plated R-P brass. All the other R-P and Speer .45 ACP brass that I have I shot, so I know it was once fired either out of the 625 or the SA 1911. The Rimz plastic moon clips seem to have something to do with it. They all went in and fired, but need a little push to seat the moon clip flush against the cylinder. When I loaded up on steel full moon clips the rounds went in much easier. Also I took several of my loaded rounds and tried them through all 6 cylinders with out clips. Initially, when I wasn't crimping enough, some rounds didn't make it into the cylinder when I tested them individually. I adjusted the crimp again (more crimp). I did some more measurements and noticed that some of the cases bulge to about .473-.474". Isn't this is still with SAAMI specs?

I might go get a Lee Sizing die, or a factory crimp die. I only want to change one thing at a time. It's easier to only change one variable to root out the problem.

Does anybody else have further information on the tight cylinder chambers on recent 625?

[Carmoney]

I'm telling you guys, there's a batch of tight cylinders out there on newer-production 625s.

I just finished using the Clymer finish reamer to bring a friend's 625 up to spec, so I am now 100% sure about this. I was very surprised at how undersized the chambers were on this gun. Before I reamed the chambers it would only work with factory ammo and certain types of handloads, but most handloads were sticky--even handloads that work great in both of my older 625s. Now every moonclip drops in perfectly.

Other than the first year of production back in 1988, 625s are not known to be finicky or sticky.

[Carmoney]

Chris, drop me a line if you want to send me your cylinder for the ream job. No charge.

[MichiganShootist]

Mike....I agree 100%

The 625 I have that was shipped with tight chambers were so tight

How tight were the???

They were so tight that the guide rod on a chamfering tool wouldn't fit in the cylinders.... It took a reamer to bring them to spec.

[lefty45]

OK -- this has happened to several of us recently, to the point I am now convinced there is a bad batch of cylinders installed in a run of fairly recent 625-8s. On these guns, some of the chambers seem to be slightly undersized, or perhaps out of round, to the point that any ammo that is even the tiniest bit oversized will hang up. Take some of your reloads and try dropping them loose into the charge holes--I'll bet you find they will drop into some, and not into others.

There are at least three 625-8s in the hands of local shooters that are exhibiting this problem. Yesterday the UPS guy dropped off a Clymer cylinder finishing reamer, which should take care of the problem. I will post more after I confirm this.

I agree as well, I have a 625 that from the factory would not accept most non factory ammo. All my reloaded ammo would fit my other 625 and 25-2. so I used a cylinder hone on it thinking that would cure the problem . After honing I was able to load the cylinder much easier but extraction after firing the ammo was extemely difficult. I called S&W and explained the problem and what I had attempted with the hope that they would repair /repalce the cylinder. Their response was that since I had tried to correct the problem, I had voided the warranty. I had an older spare cylinder to use -It worked fine.

So Mike, how much would a chamber reaming cost ?

[Carmoney]

So Mike, how much would a chamber reaming cost ?

Nothin'. I'm giving out free ream jobs to all my BE forum buddies.

(Wait a sec--that doesn't sound quite right, does it??)

Seriously, Phil, if you want that cylinder done, just stick it in a padded envelope and mail it my way.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

The fact that it doesn't happen with factory ammo means it's the reloaded ammo. What you're describing sounds a lot like the scenario auto shooters run into with brass that's been shot in Glocks and other service guns that have slightly oversized chambers to increase feed reliability. The brass gets bulged at the bottom and normal dies can't remove all of that. Run a Lee/EGW Undersized die in your press or set up a single stage press and run all unknown brass through the U-die before adding it to your supply and I'll bet money you're going to be fine.

When I take once fired brass from my duty Glock and resize it with a Dillon die the case will only go about 3/4 of the way into a case gauge. Run that same case through a U-die and it drops through the gauge with no resistance.

+1

Try less crimp before you get your rim ream job from Mike If less crimp does not work, ream away.

[Carmoney]

Gary makes good point (albeit in a somewhat disgusting way--I said ream, not rim): Reaming the chambers won't help if you're using bad ammo. But when the handloads are sticky, even though they work fine in your other 625, or your friend's 625, it's definitely a gun problem. Or when your loads drop right into some chambers, but are sticky in other chambers, it's definitely a gun problem--assuming the chambers are clean, of course.

[ChrisStock]

Chris, drop me a line if you want to send me your cylinder for the ream job. No charge.

I'm not a revolver man at all, but saw this post and had to say THAT is what what the BE forums are all about. Carmoney, what a cool thing to do

[DCMshooter]

Mike,

Thanks for the offer. I'm considering it. I just want to play around with a few other things first.

Have you contacted S&W and asked them about this problem? Is there any official word from them?

One other thing: What is the diameter of the chambers after reaming?

Thanks,

Chris

[Carmoney]

Chris, looks like somewhere around .477" or .478", that's about as close as I can get with my calipers. You might check with Clymer for the nominal spec of their finish reamer. I'm fairly sure it's the SAAMI spec for a .45 revo chamber.

I have not communicated with S&W on this, I have lost my faith in their ability to recognize and deal with this sort of problem. When fellow forum member dgsmith had this exact same problem, they told him he had blown his warranty by trying to fix the problem himself with a cylinder hone. So he bought the reamer and did it himself, too.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Carmoney

[Carmoney]

I'm not a revolver man at all, but saw this post and had to say THAT is what what the BE forums are all about. Carmoney, what a cool thing to do

Thanks Lighteye67! I'll tell you what, fellow forum members have been so incredibly kind to my son and I over the past couple of years, I'm just pleased to have the chance to reciprocate.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I have not communicated with S&W on this, I have lost my faith in their ability to recognize and deal with this sort of problem.

The problem you will have trying to tell them is they will stand and say they design for factory ammunition and there is no problem with that.

I am a very loyal customer of S&W and see things changing to the point they do not care about the competition shooter using reloaded ammunition. They care about the masses that only shoot in a year what I shoot in a week as long as it is factory ammo.

I have e mailed a certain design engineer I have met at the factory about other problems and have not even gotten he courtesy of a reply. We are on our own to repair these problems and keep on going.

I have had this problem on a couple occasions but have determined it to be a Speer brass problem.

[Carmoney]

S&W still makes a great basic product, and I'm sure there are people on board that care about customer service and QC. I just think we are reaching the point where computer-controlled, automated production at S&W has advanced far enough that there is not much need for craftsmanship anymore, and consequently, craftsmanship is in very short supply. In other words, even when they try to be helpful, most of the people at S&W don't know what the hell they're doing.

The first time I really noticed this is when several supervisory personnel brought samples to the Steel Challenge a few years ago. The revolvers they had with them had the most godawful trigger pulls, and these guys didn't even know enough to be embarrassed about it.

It's just the way it is. Probably a microcosm of our entire society.

[Scoterbeast]

I'm new to reloading. I have a Dillon 650 with all Dillon dies, took lots of time to set it up right. And have been quite pleased with the results. However, I have a little problem that I can't figure out.

I have a S&W 625 revolver. I load up moon clips with factory Remington UMC .45 ACP and they drop right in and I close the cylinder and fire away. I've been collecting the brass for a few months, finally got all my reloading equipment and went to town. Problem is, when I put my reloads in the moon clips (plastic Rimz) they don't want to drop right in; I need to push them to seat them all the way. The bind to the cyclinder and I have to give a good push the ejector rod to get them out (with and with out firing). This doesn't happen with factory ammo.

Here are some specs:

Remington brass (once fired, was tumbled in Lyman treated corn cob media for about 5 hours, did not trim)

Rainier Copper plated 230 grain RN

Cartridge lengths before loading (average) 0.890.

O.A.L is 1.265"

diameter at neck is 0.468"

diameter midway down case is 0.468"

diameter at base above the taper to the rim is 0.473"

At first I though that I didn't crimp enough to straighten out the belling. So I adjusted the crimp die a bit. That didn't help. the cartridges always get down about 3/4 to 7/8 of the way into the cylinder before the stick. I have to push them in maybe the final 1/8". I don't have a case gauge yet, but one is being shipped as we speak.

Thanks for any help,

Chris

[Scoterbeast]

I'm new to reloading. I have a Dillon 650 with all Dillon dies, took lots of time to set it up right. And have been quite pleased with the results. However, I have a little problem that I can't figure out.

I have a S&W 625 revolver. I load up moon clips with factory Remington UMC .45 ACP and they drop right in and I close the cylinder and fire away. I've been collecting the brass for a few months, finally got all my reloading equipment and went to town. Problem is, when I put my reloads in the moon clips (plastic Rimz) they don't want to drop right in; I need to push them to seat them all the way. The bind to the cyclinder and I have to give a good push the ejector rod to get them out (with and with out firing). This doesn't happen with factory ammo.

Here are some specs:

Remington brass (once fired, was tumbled in Lyman treated corn cob media for about 5 hours, did not trim)

Rainier Copper plated 230 grain RN

Cartridge lengths before loading (average) 0.890.

O.A.L is 1.265"

diameter at neck is 0.468"

diameter midway down case is 0.468"

diameter at base above the taper to the rim is 0.473"

At first I though that I didn't crimp enough to straighten out the belling. So I adjusted the crimp die a bit. That didn't help. the cartridges always get down about 3/4 to 7/8 of the way into the cylinder before the stick. I have to push them in maybe the final 1/8". I don't have a case gauge yet, but one is being shipped as we speak.

Thanks for any help,

Chris

I am one of the local guys that had the "tight cylinder syndrome" Mike C put his magic reamer to work - Thanks, Mike! - now when I moon clip any of my check guaged loads for my Kimber, they pop right in. Had to make no changes to the load dimensions. I would heartily suggest anyone with similar problems to take mike up on his offer to hone your cylinder. It is sooo nice to be able to use my other 45 loads in the 625 (after hand seating the fed primers that is)