Hollow points

[LPatterson]

Stuff happens. At the O/L10 nats a rock the size of a baseball came out of the bay next door, cleared an 8 foot berm, 20 yards of bay, 6 feet of wall & landed at the foot of the CRO. I think it stopped to pay homage.

[gino_aki]

If you're shooting with MPPL you should talk with Ian, Keith or Richard about getting the steel fixed or replaced. If it's with the Rhat Rhat boys then see Randy. Be prepared to have a discussion about costs, though, I'm sure you can imagine shipping costs to O'ahu much less Maui. We also use hp's over here on Maui but our steel is generally in good shape plus all the PP's are forward falling so less chance for bounce-backs. Trying to convert the USP's to forward fallers, too. Come on over and shoot a match when the Superferry gets here.

Edited June 29, 2007 by gino_aki

[JFD]

I tend to agree that bad steel causes most of the problems. We had some "cupped" poppers that were shooting back pretty regularly a few years ago. Pretty sad that they were reversable and there was no excuse for this. I straightened them out when I was MD.

I shoot plated HPs due to accuracy and low smoke in my .40 Limited gun. Never have I noticed them being more of a problem than any other bullet style. I've been hit with pieces of 230 LRN .45 more than anything else over the years.

I don't know the history of the rule, but at our club's plate rack we aren't supposed to use jacketed bullets for safety reasons. Lead and plated are good to go.

Personally I would think a HP would be safer in that a person would be exposed to smaller pieces of lead and jacket than FMJ. I can't see why a HP would be more likely to cause a problem that may just be inherent with shooting steel at relatively close range. Just thinking out loud though...

[Joe4d]

the steel in question was in good shape, and MPPL is now using forward fallers, interesting that none has issues or has addresses my biggest hollow point concern, the extra risk to life and limb of a direct hollow point hit.

[Joe4d]

I looked into shooting the major match on Maui, but adding up the expenses I found I could fly home to Virginia and shoot a Major IDPA match for the same money, Not sure I'm too keen on the Super ferry, course it would be fun to ride while somebody else has to fix it. I spent a year as the SR. Maintenance NCO on one of those, talk about a hole in the water you throw money, I wouldnt expect to see it around long unless the state and feds just get stubborn about all the money they have allready wasted and keep pumping more into it.

[Nik Habicht]

interesting that none has issues or has addresses my biggest hollow point concern, the extra risk to life and limb of a direct hollow point hit.

Unless the folks you shoot with regularly have a well thought out plan, that they implement immediately and aggressively, given the remote location of most ranges, the person getting hit doesn't stand much of a chance of surviving long enough for the difference between a hollow point and fmj to matter. Also that difference is likely to be smaller than you think, given the fact that we're not exactly shooting the highest tech hollow points in our sport.....

[shred]

FWIW, this article from the FBI bulletin (scroll down) implies that JHP's at 1200+ fps are best except for frangibles for destroying themselves completely on the steel and not reflecting back as much splatter.

http://www.actiontarget.com/pdf/Steel_Targ...ety_and_Use.pdf

By far the largest sources of bad uprange splatter I see are poorly maintained steel and steel with flat surfaces perpendicular to the impact surface-- the classic circle welded to a flat base plate is a great example of splatter-inducing steel design-- the splatter / chunks from the plate hits the base, then splatters again off that back uprange. Those suck.

[JFD]

I guess I worry about direct bullet hits at a USPSA match about the same as I worry about getting struck by lightning while indoors on a sunny day.

My worry factor increases at public ranges, but I'm hardly worrying about what kind of bullet I might get shot with. Of course I have a much lower opinion of HPs than some people apparently do. I've hunted with a handgun too much to get too excited over the difference in performance between bullet types.

[EricW]

interesting that none has issues or has addresses my biggest hollow point concern, the extra risk to life and limb of a direct hollow point hit.

That's because there *is* no extra risk. It seems in IPSC, somebody comes up with a new "that bullet is gonna kill us all" mantra periodically. Last time it was Montana Gold and it's brass jacket that needed to be banned. Yeah...right...

There's more to steel target safety than just keeping the shooting surface flat. The other big issue is ricochet paths. Some target designs are far more prone to slinging back bullets than others.

For my money, the most ricochet-prone bullets in the sport are the big, slow ones, typically FMJ. They don't completely fragment on impact like a major 38 and thus there's chunks with substantial mass remaining to return uprange and retain their velocity. HP's, by design, tend to self destruct on impact and I would categorize them as the safest bullets for use on steel.

Edited June 30, 2007 by EricW

[rishii]

interesting that none has issues or has addresses my biggest hollow point concern, the extra risk to life and limb of a direct hollow point hit.

That's because there *is* no extra risk. It seems in IPSC, somebody comes up with a new "that bullet is gonna kill us all" manta periodically. Last time it was Montana Gold and it's brass jacket that needed to be banned. Yeah...right...

There's more to steel target safety than just keeping the shooting surface flat. The other big issue is ricochet paths. Some target designs are far more prone to slinging back bullets that others.

For my money, the most ricochet-prone bullets in the sport are the big, slow ones, typically FMJ. They don't completely fragment on impact like a major 38 and thus there's chunks with substantial mass remaining to return uprange and retain their velocity. HP's, by design, tend to self destruct on impact and I would categorize them as the safest bullets for use on steel.

big+1

I remember the old days when everyone, including the open guys shot hard cast lead. splatter was a much more common than it is now. if you want a good example of this, go check out a cowboy match, where they shoot hard cast lead moving real slow like compared to ours.

but to keep this in line with your hate, I really hate 9mm 125 jhp, now if everyone here would repeat this, maybe I could find some thats not backordered or cost an arm, both legs and an eye to get.

[gino_aki]

interesting that none has issues or has addresses my biggest hollow point concern, the extra risk to life and limb of a direct hollow point hit.

That's because there *is* no extra risk. It seems in IPSC, somebody comes up with a new "that bullet is gonna kill us all" manta periodically. Last time it was Montana Gold and it's brass jacket that needed to be banned. Yeah...right...

There's more to steel target safety than just keeping the shooting surface flat. The other big issue is ricochet paths. Some target designs are far more prone to slinging back bullets that others.

For my money, the most ricochet-prone bullets in the sport are the big, slow ones, typically FMJ. They don't completely fragment on impact like a major 38 and thus there's chunks with substantial mass remaining to return uprange and retain their velocity. HP's, by design, tend to self destruct on impact and I would categorize them as the safest bullets for use on steel.

big+1

I remember the old days when everyone, including the open guys shot hard cast lead. splatter was a much more common than it is now. if you want a good example of this, go check out a cowboy match, where they shoot hard cast lead moving real slow like compared to ours.

but to keep this in line with your hate, I really hate 9mm 125 jhp, now if everyone here would repeat this, maybe I could find some thats not backordered or cost an arm, both legs and an eye to get.

what, Ray, you nevah stock up BEFORE you w'en buy your new house!?