Help with peened notches

[MichiganShootist]

Mike said--------"We're a very small minority of the shooting public, but we shoot a disproptionate percentage of the rounds fired"

Mike is right about this point... But the number of guns purchased not the number of rounds fired is what generates interest from the gun companies. In some ways we represent their worst form of customer... someone who REALLY pushes their product to the limit.

The converse.... is the hundreds of civilians I see during the year who actually come into pistol classes with 20 or even 40 year old revolvers and they still have a half box of the ammo they bought with the gun.

This huge majority of gun owners will never wear out a part.... so the products are engineered to meet their reliability standards... not ours.

There are examples of this situation in nearly every industry...... We competition shoooters are much like people who by a vehicle, prepare, and alter it for racing. People who do that generally get no factory repairs done for them either.

I don't like this situation.. but think it is the reality we will be forced to live with.

[bountyhunter]

Thinking about the cylinder issue, I wonder if there would be a way to re-harden a stock stainless 625 cylinder in some reasonably cost-effective manner./// What would be viable? Anyone??

They could surface harden them to a thickness of about .008" the same way they do the triggers and hammers. That would significantly reduce the peening effect at a slightly increased propensity to crack (more brittle).

{snip}

A titanium cylinder might peen less because of increased hardness, but Ti has other problems like scratching and tempco. The different expansion rates of steel and Ti cause some revolvers to bind when they get hot.

The Ti cylinder weighs 60% of the SS version so there is less mass to stop (and start). I destroyed one SS cylinder and a handful of stops in my first two years of shooting revolver in USPSA.

The SS cylinder S&W put in for me "bound up" because they apparently didn't gap the cylinder correctly and did not set the end shake. My experience is that no cylinder will bind up (hot or cold) if gapped and spaced correctly to the gun.

I agree. If set up correctly, it won't bind.... but some of the new guns with Ti cylinders did bind up because of expansion. The end shake spec is basically ZERO to .001", so they can be set up snug fit.... and that could bind when hot. If enough end shake is present, it will not.

[jasond]

I understand that since we are maybe 2% of the consumers, and beat these things to death, Smith has little reason to build guns to meet our needs. So then why do they bother with the performance center?

I have 2 S&W's, a 642 that has maybe 500 rounds through it over a couple years, and a 627 v-comp i shoot once or twice a week.

The 642 runs great and I'll never wear it out.

The v-comp I waited 4 months for, and when i got it, the hammer was rubbing the frame, so I shimmed it. The barrel is screwed on just a touch too far so the ball bearing in the yoke doesn't go all the way into the barrel detent and the rear sight had to be set a little to the left. that part i had to suck up. Then, after maybe a hundred rounds and a little more dry fire, the ejector rod unscrewed and shot across the living room. Not cool. I made up the tool to tighten it and took care of that.

Why not send it back?

I decided long ago that I didn't want anyone else messing with my stuff. I've screwed some things up, but then learned how to fix them right. Nowadays, with great guys like all of you on these forums, everything I need to know to get it right is right here.

Would I buy another Smith? Sure. It's the only game in town.

[Carmoney]

We competition shoooters are much like people who by a vehicle, prepare, and alter it for racing. People who do that generally get no factory repairs done for them either.

I don't like this situation.. but think it is the reality we will be forced to live with.

I have to believe the auto manufacturers feel a vested interest (and in fact do make a monetary investment) in the high-profile racing teams that run their products in plain view of a large viewing audience. Now I know we don't carry the consumer appeal of something like NASCAR, but you'd think the factory would at least be concerned about keeping their highest-level performance customers happy. Particularly since it would cost so very little.

[Waltermitty]

{snip}

I agree. If set up correctly, it won't bind.... but some of the new guns with Ti cylinders did bind up because of expansion. The end shake spec is basically ZERO to .001", so they can be set up snug fit.... and that could bind when hot. If enough end shake is present, it will not.

Since I don't know how to measure .000" I have never tried to set one to that value.

The .000" spec is probably a bigger problem than material type. You could probably have an "interference fit" and still spin the cylinder on a cold gun because of crane flex. It's a pretty small cross section of material from the end of the crane to the back side of the extractor, which is where the expansion would have to occur for the cylinder to cause a lockup.

I don't put much end shake in my guns, but I won't accept zero either.

There may be some good gunsmiths at S&W, but I'll only use them as a last resort; and plan to "fix" my guns when they get home.

[Waltermitty]

{snip}

So since the factory won't take care of it, what about some sort of aftermarket heat treatment or something that would actually harden the surface of the stock cylinder sufficiently to stop the problem? What would be viable? Anyone??

I think there are grades of stainless out there that would work, but my guess is that S&W has chosen a grade that helps them extend tool life instead (i.e. is easy to cut).

I don't think you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear; even if you heat treat it.

You don't shoot enough.....

...fast enough.

[bountyhunter]

I understand that since we are maybe 2% of the consumers, and beat these things to death, Smith has little reason to build guns to meet our needs. So then why do they bother with the performance center?

It makes money for them.

The v-comp I waited 4 months for, and when i got it, the hammer was rubbing the frame, so I shimmed it. The barrel is screwed on just a touch too far so the ball bearing in the yoke doesn't go all the way into the barrel detent and the rear sight had to be set a little to the left. that part i had to suck up. Then, after maybe a hundred rounds and a little more dry fire, the ejector rod unscrewed and shot across the living room. Not cool. I made up the tool to tighten it and took care of that.

Why not send it back?

Ummmm... cause you'd be giving the guys who screwed it up the first time a chance to screw it up even more?

{snip}

I agree. If set up correctly, it won't bind.... but some of the new guns with Ti cylinders did bind up because of expansion. The end shake spec is basically ZERO to .001", so they can be set up snug fit.... and that could bind when hot. If enough end shake is present, it will not.

Since I don't know how to measure .000" I have never tried to set one to that value.

The .000" spec is probably a bigger problem than material type. You could probably have an "interference fit" and still spin the cylinder on a cold gun because of crane flex.

After a while, you can tell by the feel if there is no clearance or clearing by spring loading flex into the crane. If it's just snug, it could bind when it gets hot.

It can also bind when hard carbon gets under the star face from knocking out the empty brass, and that carbon builds up. Only takes a little there....

The Ti binding issue I referred to was seen on some new guns that got hot and started to get tight. I assume that the end shake spec for a Ti would require a little more space.

[Bill Schwab]

I am in the process of sending a stainless cylinder to get it Cryoed, to see if that process will harden the stainless sufficiently to handle the wear better than the simple stainless cylinder.

Any luck?

[Carmoney]

My advice: Stay away from cryopractors. And other practitioners of witchcraft.

[pskys2]

My advice: Stay away from cryopractors. And other practitioners of witchcraft.

Shouldn't that be "wishcraft"?

[Carmoney]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCHIW8qsnXk...feature=related

[snertley]

LOOK AWAY!!!! No, wait , was that Cliff singing in the lounge again? Edited December 5, 2008 by snertley

[jmax]

One thing that I have done for years is to file the step on the cylinder stop to increase protrusion into the stop notch. You need to check stop timing but that is not too difficult and the new MIM stops seem to work every time in my experience. That has minimized cylinder stop notch peening on my revolvers and tose that I work on. Step one inside the lock work, file step on cylinder stop, then proceed to rest of work. This allows the stop to rest in the bottom of the notch. I learned that trick from Ron Power years ago when I was learning to build PPC revolvers. I still shoot piles of ammo but through my 627's w/o any throw by. I have a 625 but since Second Chance and pin shooting it lays in the safe and is not shot as much. I also recommend Mike's suggestion of inspecting and polishing the lead on the stop notches.

Edited December 6, 2008 by jmax

[Toolguy]

One thing I haven't seen addressed yet is that some will cut down or lighten the spring that powers the cylinder stop in an attempt

to make the trigger return easier. It does help in that department, but I think it's a bad idea and not needed if the action is properly

done in other areas. I agree with the other posts above, just wanted to add 2 more cents.

[jmax]

Trigger return problems are related to the hammer safety and it needs to be modified to eliminate that problem. Reducing cylinder stop spring tension by cutting or replacing is not advised.

[jjanglin]

Well folks I know their are skeptics about the cryo process, Ive been using it for some time now,

when Roger Sherman of the Air force team was shooting Para's the trigger jobs I did didnt last as

long as I wanted so I contacted a fellow here in Omaha who does cryo process and I had the parts

for the Para's Cryo'd Roger told me a year or so later he had not had any trouble since we started

doing this. d

Doug the fellow who does the Cryo for me also does cutting blades for Con-Agra

,engines for air planes,trigger groups for long range shooters from all over the country.

Ive also had some stainless slides done that tended to gaul and the process stopped the problems.

Im positive of the Cryo Process works. TJ has all his slides done got this from him face to face.

It isnt a cure for improper fit parts but will help with wear on parts done right!!!

Jim/Pa

Sailors