Do The Rules Apply To Everyone?

[jemaddux]

Had a really bad day of shooting today. I was DQed at the second stage for a AD. The stage was set that you did your handgun shooting then ran to the table and placed a SAFE handgun down and then run around the corner to your rifle and so on. Well when placing the handgun down, I shoot a Glock so their is no safety so the only safe way would be unloaded, I dropped the mag out and went to take the round out of the chamber and when doing so I was closer to the table then I thought and hit the table and the firearm discharged down range. I went to stop and a few people said no keep going. Well when I got the the rifle someone said no to stop and I was DQed. I said fine and didn't argue anything about it, I had a AD and the rules are the rules so lesson learned for next time. Now the person that called me on this made a big deal saying I needed to be used as a example for the for the next person and so on.

Now I gave a person a ride so I had to hang out for that person to finish. Now when waiting this squad goes over to a shotgun stage and I am there waiting for my friend. The person that made such a big deal about me shoots the shotgun stage and at the end of it turns from the line and walks back over behind where everyone is. Problem is that his shotgun is still loaded. He now figures this out and unloads it and a few people see this including me. So I nicely bring up the point that he had made a big deal about me and the safety issue, stated this was a cold range and at any time someone breaks the 180 they are done. So I asked him didn't he feel walking around with a hot firearm, turning off the line with a hot firearm and breaking the 180 should also be used as an example? He said well of course not, that is different.

So am I wrong in thinking that the rules are for some and not for others?

Now I have an older IPSC Handgun Competition rules 2004 and 10.4.3.1 says that while unloading a handgun a AD might not be a DQ. But further in the rules it does say that walking around with a loaded firearm is a DQ if it is in the chamber or not.

SO do I just except the DQ and drop the whole thing or???

Edited April 15, 2007 by jemaddux

[Merlin Orr]

Accept the DQ gracefully. But...IMHO - The other guy should have DQ'ed himself.

[Mooney]

100% agree. Question to be asked though is where the heck the RO was when he finished the SG stage....

[GentlemanJim]

The rules are the rules! and they apply to everyone equally and fairly.

The RO made the call on the dq so that is just the way it is. Not fun but just accept it.

Just be aware of the other guys poor gun handleing, if it happens again talk to the CRO about it.

Sorry you had a bad day.

Jim

[ChuckS]

James,

Yup, he should of DQ'ed himself with encouragement from the RO, who should of did an ULASC! Like Mooney asked, where was the RO?

As for your DQ, well take it gracefully.

"10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a

handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a

match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply."

From the glossary:

"Detonation Ignition of the primer of a round, other than by action

of a firing pin, where the bullet does not pass through

the barrel (e.g. when a slide is being manually retracted,

when a round is dropped)."

Sending one down the barrel by use of the trigger will get you an early ticket home every time.

Sorry,

Chuck

[jemaddux]

James,

Yup, he should of DQ'ed himself with encouragement from the RO, who should of did an ULASC! Like Mooney asked, where was the RO?

As for your DQ, well take it gracefully.

"10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a

handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a

match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply."

From the glossary:

"Detonation Ignition of the primer of a round, other than by action

of a firing pin, where the bullet does not pass through

the barrel (e.g. when a slide is being manually retracted,

when a round is dropped)."

Sending one down the barrel by use of the trigger will get you an early ticket home every time.

Sorry,

Chuck

The RO was standing right there and the guy suddenly said loadly "oh my firearm was loaded, I screwed up so if no one minds we'll just keep going here", well I'm DQed so I have no say so on this and no one wanted to start anything about it.

My DQ, I am totally fine with. I screwed up, I sent a round when I shouldn't have, it was not a firearm malfunction. Like I said, I stop right when it happened, it was everyone else saying go on. Now if everyone else was telling me to go on and he is taking it as everyone was telling him to go on then, then why did only one of use end up with a DQ?

I would like to see everything straight across the board the same.

[Crusher]

Do The Rules Apply To Everyone?

Yes they allways SHOULD, the larger concern would be for the the general safety (or lack thereof) at this match/club.

Where the f!@# was the RO and what training (if any) do they have?

I would have reservation about ever returning to a club that runs their matches in such a fashion as to allow a competitor to step away from a stage and forget an ULSC command or worse allows competitors to RO themselves, to many opportunities for error.

While a day on the range for many is enjoyable a day around incompetance can be dangerous

[Larry White]

Couple of things I see here. I'm not so sure you had a DQ comeing. Grounding a safe handgun? If your finger is off the trigger a glock is on safe, just like a 1911 pistol with the safety on, why did you have to clear it? Where did the round you fired impact? You may or may not have had a DQ comeing, I wasnt there so I will leave that one to the on site folks. But a idiot walking around behind the fireing line with a loaded shotgun is out of there, period. If everyone there didnt raise hell about that its not a match I want to shoot.---------------Larry

[Lee Bell]

Now when waiting this squad goes over to a shotgun stage and I am there waiting for my friend. The person that made such a big deal about me shoots the shotgun stage and at the end of it turns from the line and walks back over behind where everyone is. Problem is that his shotgun is still loaded. He now figures this out and unloads it and a few people see this including me. So I nicely bring up the point that he had made a big deal about me and the safety issue, stated this was a cold range and at any time someone breaks the 180 they are done. So I asked him didn't he feel walking around with a hot firearm, turning off the line with a hot firearm and breaking the 180 should also be used as an example? He said well of course not, that is different.

I have trouble understanding how this could happen. I don't shoot multigun events, so perhaps I don't understand how they work, but in the matches I do shoot, at the end of a stage, the command is "unload and show safe." How did he happen to be leaving the line without complying?

I think it's worth bringing the issue to the attention of the MD, complete with the names of as many witnesses as you can remember. At the very least, the offending shooter should be advised of the error of his ways and should get the DQ he deserved.

SO do I just except the DQ and drop the whole thing or???

You accept the DQ. As you noted in other messages, you earned it. As for dropping the whole thing, I think not, but the correct approach is not to compare his actions to yours but to compare his actions to the rules. Make it about safety, not revenge.

Lee

[jemaddux]

Couple of things I see here. I'm not so sure you had a DQ comeing. Grounding a safe handgun? If your finger is off the trigger a glock is on safe, just like a 1911 pistol with the safety on, why did you have to clear it? Where did the round you fired impact? You may or may not have had a DQ comeing, I wasnt there so I will leave that one to the on site folks. But a idiot walking around behind the fireing line with a loaded shotgun is out of there, period. If everyone there didnt raise hell about that its not a match I want to shoot.---------------Larry

I deserved the DQ. No one told me to clear the chamber I just figured it would be the safest way to leave the firearm on the table. The discharge went down range but there is no doubt in my mind that I had a DQ coming. The stage was just a screwy stage. I just feel that when these stages are done the rules are there and EVERYONE will comply, not well this one gets DQed and because this one helped set up or whatever, they get a free ticket.

[Flexmoney]

...the rules are there and EVERYONE will comply...

That is proper, and required in an USPSA match.

[RePete]

I've seen the rules apply to everyone EXCEPT the prima donnas.

It tends to keep them from whining. I say "Let them whine!" or at least offer them some cheese.

[nm3gnr]

Both competitors should have been DQ'ed. The person with the shotgun should have been so embarassed and DQ'ed themself and should have went home thinking very badly.

And going over and over in their mind of how they left the stage with a loaded firearm and vowed to himself to take better precautions and never allow himself to do this again.

[ShooterSteve]

Hey Jemaddux, one other option with the Glock is to drop the mag on the run and then PURPOSEFULLY send the round safely down range into a target or berm. It is actually faster than trying to unchamber the round. Of course this all depends on the rules at that range and what type of match it is and the stage description etc... Take it all as a learning lesson, but the other guy should have been out of there in a heartbeat. I have to agree with the other guys, where was the RO at the end of the stage?????

[Micah]

Sounds like a need for good old fashioned trigger control. Although there was a special on the news about a month ago here saying otherwise, Glocks DO NOT go off by themselves.

You made an error and were DQ'd. Something tells me that you will NEVER make that mistake again. As long as you walked away from that match with some new knowledge, it was worth your time.

[Mick]

DQ X 2.

Why does the other guy think he can carry a hot weapon uprange, break the 180 and NOT be DQ'd?????

[jemaddux]

Sounds like a need for good old fashioned trigger control. Although there was a special on the news about a month ago here saying otherwise, Glocks DO NOT go off by themselves.

You made an error and were DQ'd. Something tells me that you will NEVER make that mistake again. As long as you walked away from that match with some new knowledge, it was worth your time.

I 150% agree. The firearm did not go off by its self, it was not a malfunction, it was 150% me all the way. I hit the table, my finger still HAD to be on the trigger and it discharged. Lesson very learned and will not happen again. My problem is when you come up and make this huge deal like I am the only one in history that has ever been DQed for a AD, say that I have to be made an example of, start yelling to people over at other stages asking if they have the stupid award for me and even start walking around telling every that will listen what happen and then turn around and break the 180 by walking off the line with a hot firearm and say that is different and you didn't break any rules, I have a big problem with that. The rules are the rules are the rules, they need to apply to everyone. I just have seen to many times that some of the good ol boys network get the free ticket and others don't.

[Flexmoney]

If this was an USPSA match, it is a matter to be addressed by the Match Director > NROI > Section Coordinator > Area Director.

If it wasn't an USPSA match, then the buck may stop at the Match Director.

Nobody want to shoot at a match where people are allowed to got by on safety infractions.

I think we've covered the bases on this one. I am going to go ahead and take the last word and close the thread.