Steel & Charge Lines

[Nemo]

At a recent match the stage description indicated that a specific steel target had to be engaged from behind a given charge line and that engaging said target past that line would result in a match dq.

A shooter engaged the target with only ONE foot past the line and the RO penalized him with one procedural penalty.

There was a "peanut gallery" discussion about how if the distance to the target was more than 7 yards then it was only a procedural but if it was 7 yards or less then it was a dq'able offense.

I'd like to think that if the course description indicated that shooting past the line was a safety violation, it doesn't matter if the target was 6.95 or 7.05 yards away, the shooter should have been dq'ed.

In this case, unlike the muzzle direction infraction talked about in another thread in this forum, the RO did see the violation because he penalized the shooter with a procedural.

Was that shooter lucky to finish the match or am I missing something regarding distances to steel target engagement?

Confused

[D.Hayden]

Usually there's 2 lines? That's what we do..

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets are used in a

course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and

match officials maintain a minimum distance of 7 meters (22.96

January 2004 Edition Rule Book • 31

feet) from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this

should be done with physical barriers. If Charge Lines are used

to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least

8 meters (26.25 feet) from the targets so that the competitor may

inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 7 meter (22.96

feet) minimum distance.

[Fireant]

By my reading of the rule which is different than Stevie's is, the shooter was lucky to be allowed to keep going. The only time I have two different lines at our match is when we are short on space. The rule book says that when possible you should have a physical barrier to stop the shooter. That is not always possible in a local match.

[Nemo]

A physical barrier would've not worked on this case because after engaging the steel target the competitor had to move forward to finish on a hidden paper.

By reading BerKim's post then the course description should've not indicate that shooting past the line was a DQ?

Edited April 11, 2007 by Nemo

[L9X25]

Can a shooter be DQ'ed when the safety rules for minimum distance were not violated?

The pertinent rule is as follows:

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets are used in a

course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and

match officials maintain a minimum distance of 7 meters (22.96

feet) from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this

should be done with physical barriers. If Charge Lines are used

to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least

8 meters (26.25 feet) from the targets so that the competitor may

inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 7 meter (22.96

feet) minimum distance.

10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge

10.4.7 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 7 meters

(22.96 feet), measured from the face of the target to the nearest

part of the competitor’s body in contact with the ground (see

Rule 2.1.3).

[D.Hayden]

I missed that course description part.

If it's under 7 yards.. DQ.

If it's over 7 yards, I don't think you can DQ because of the course description.

If there's no way to 'know'. Maybe the line was at 9 M, with no clear 7 M

marking.. it's the RO's judgement I think.

[Nemo]

Can a shooter be DQ'ed when the safety rules for minimum distance were not violated?

I guess not, however I think in the case I'm referring to the question was never answered and I don't know what was the distance from the line to the face of the steel target.

Why did the written course description called for a DQ then? Maybe the line was at 7 instead of 8, where it should've been.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Nemo

[Fireant]

I would think if it was in the stage description it would be under the 7 yards in the rules. I know that's the only time I put it in our descriptions.

[L9X25]

When there are several steel targets available from a position, at varying distances, the walkthrough should be written:

"If you fault the line and shoot from within 23' you will be disqualified."

If you cross the line and shoot while remaining more than 23' you should only get 1P per steel shot while faulting.

Edited April 11, 2007 by L9X25

[Flexmoney]

Why did the written course description called for a DQ then?

Because it was poorly written and bad stage design.

[ima45dv8]

The rule allows for inadvertant faulting of the 8 meter line, and if in the judgement of the RO the shooter then engaged a steel target while more than 1 meter past the line, it's a DQ. I'm not real comfortable with the idea of having the line set at 7 meters and declaring a DQ in the WSB for any shot fired while faulting, even a tiny bit.

Edited April 11, 2007 by ima45dv8

[Flexmoney]

You can't DQ a shooter unless they violate one of the specific rules in the safety section.

Note which rules was violated, and the circumstances that support that, then lets go from there.

[ima45dv8]

You can't DQ a shooter unless they violate one of the specific rules in the safety section.

Note which rules was violated, and the circumstances that support that, then lets go from there.

Exactly. That's why this scenario left me a little queazy.

I'm not about to ring someone up with a DQ based on a homemade rule, no matter how well-intended. Established range rules, however, are another story.

[Flexmoney]

FWIW, this is how Jeff Maass used to handle it...before we went to "freestyle" stages.

He might have some steel that he would stipulate in the procedure that had to be shoot from Box A. You went on to shoot the rest of the stage, but weren't allowed to shoot the steel from anywhere but Box A. Violating that, he declared was UGH under 12.01 (old rule).

What we are seeing in this case is another one of those situations where the local club choose to negate "freestyle" in their stage design...getting what we see here.

Here is a good example of one of Jeff's old stages: (note...large pdf file with lots of stages. 847k)

http://www.k8nd.com/documents/IPSCSB1A.PDF

The stage on page 11, America's Most Taunted, shows 5 steel that need to be shoot from the start box. Stages like this were fun, but the DQ traps were built right in there. A shooter could easily not catch the fact that they missed a piece of steel. Then, later as they were negotiating the rest of the stage...they'd see a steel target...and might instinctively throw a round at it. Opps...

[ima45dv8]

I'm OK with a stage like that, and in fact we have some like that around here from time to time. Still, I like to see the box/area where you're mandated to engage the steel from at least 8 meters from the steel for the foot-faulting reason mentioned above.

[mactiger]

You basically can't DQ someone by decree, especially if you did not set the course up properly. Established range rules (or local rules) don't fly either, unless you have an exemption endorsed by Mr. Voigt. The steel should have been set at 8 meters past the fault/charge line, and another mark or something placed at 7 meters. If the competitor fired a shot at the steel from inside the 7m mark, it'a DQ, per the rulebook, not per the WSB. In this situation, it could have been realized that the WSB was incorrect, and the RO made the right call. This could have been discussed prior to the start of the match. It should have been corrected in the WSB. To make a long story short: the WSB can't specify a DQ for a specific action. In this case the rule is clear.

Troy

[blackdragon]

In the box???? Out of the box????

Ivan

This has been going on for....25+ years!!!!

[kevin c]

Our club uses two methods:

First is two fault lines, the second being the minimum 7 meters. You fault the first, you get procedurals. You fault the second, you're gone.

Actually, we decided that allowing shooters to charge the steel and be closer than seven meters while still legally engaging other targets was too much of a risk (especially new shooters who might not realize the consequences of nailing that popper from 5 feet away). Now we basically don't design stages where the shooter EVER gets closer to the steel than the minimum distance, unless there is a physical barrier that prevents engagement of (not just approach to) the steel from that close.

[ima45dv8]

Our club uses two methods:

First is two fault lines, the second being the minimum 7 meters. You fault the first, you get procedurals. You fault the second, you're gone.

Actually, we decided that allowing shooters to charge the steel and be closer than seven meters while still legally engaging other targets was too much of a risk (especially new shooters who might not realize the consequences of nailing that popper from 5 feet away). Now we basically don't design stages where the shooter EVER gets closer to the steel than the minimum distance, unless there is a physical barrier that prevents engagement of (not just approach to) the steel from that close.

Sounds very prudent. An ounce of prevention, and all that....

[Nemo]

Thank you all for the responses. It's clear that the only sin here was a poorly written course description.

NEXT

[ipscbob]

You basically can't DQ someone by decree, especially if you did not set the course up properly. Established range rules (or local rules) don't fly either, unless you have an exemption endorsed by Mr. Voigt.

Troy

Thanks for the clarification to this point, Troy. At our locals, we see "local Rules" and level 1 exemption quoted all the time for WSBs that dont follow USPSA rules. I suspect that this is highly abused quite often as an excuse for a poor stage design. I would love to see it gone from the next rule book. I wonder how many clubs actually use it as it was intended?

[stevie b]

By my reading of the rule which is different than Stevie's is, the shooter was lucky to be allowed to keep going. The only time I have two different lines at our match is when we are short on space. The rule book says that when possible you should have a physical barrier to stop the shooter. That is not always possible in a local match.

Why on gods green earth would you drag me into this?

I told you the gospel.YOU CAN'T GET DQ'D FOR SHOOTING STEEL CLOSER THAN 7 YRD'S WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM HQ.

Rodger,don't make me drag out that open gun again.

[Fireant]

At first I thought Nemo was refering to a match he shot with you. Doesn,'t this rule say that you can get DQ'd for shooting steele at less than 7 yards?

10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge

10.4.7 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 7 meters

(22.96 feet), measured from the face of the target to the nearest

part of the competitor’s body in contact with the ground (see

Rule 2.1.3).

[stevie b]

At first I thought Nemo was refering to a match he shot with you. Doesn,'t this rule say that you can get DQ'd for shooting steele at less than 7 yards?

10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge

10.4.7 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 7 meters

(22.96 feet), measured from the face of the target to the nearest

part of the competitor’s body in contact with the ground (see

Rule 2.1.3).

Well then,

I guess because of my neglect and the fact I just take the words of the sc,

i may have to eat crow on this.

Now i know i'm breaking out the racegun

[Fireant]

-->

QUOTE(stevie b @ Apr 13 2007, 01:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At first I thought Nemo was refering to a match he shot with you. Doesn,'t this rule say that you can get DQ'd for shooting steele at less than 7 yards?

10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge

10.4.7 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 7 meters

(22.96 feet), measured from the face of the target to the nearest

part of the competitor’s body in contact with the ground (see

Rule 2.1.3).

Well then,

I guess because of my neglect and the fact I just take the words of the sc,

i may have to eat crow on this.

Now i know i'm breaking out the racegun

Bring it on buddy