Oal Frustration 9mm.

[Mousekiller]

I've got a Dillon 550b and am loading 9mm on it currently. using Precision delta 147gr rn bullets. Mixed Brass. Lee Carbide 4 die set.

For the life of me tonight I could not get a consistant OAL, I load to 1.150. I was getting anywhere from 1.144 to 1.173 was the longest. of the 100 i loaded about 25+ of them i had to reseat to get to 1.150 as they were between 1.154 & 1.173 i left anything that was 1.148 to 1.152 go.

I even have the unique tech locking package that holds the tool head.

I'd get one bullet that was ok then three that were long, then one that wasn't then one that was long again. it was interemittent as all get out.

I thought maybe not enough Bell on the case, so i gave it a tad more, no change.

I was very purposeful in my strokes on the handle trying very hard to be consistant and i was definitley not rushing, i measured every bullet as it came out of the press.

I've got probably 10k rounds through the press in 40 and 45 .. Just really started loading 9mm though.

Could it be the dies ? I normally use Redding pro's. I measured some of the bullet lengths and they were not all that consistent..

Any suggestions ? I clean the press regularly.

arrg, can't keep doing this, it takes to friggin long to load bullets.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Jeff.

[HSMITH]

It is the bullet shape that is inconsistent. The contour of the bullet that touches the seating die stem (ogive) isn't consistent.

Don't worry about it, load at a length that lets the longest round you make fit in the mag with some room to spare and shoot on. You could switch to a more consistent bullet like Zero and the variations will shrink a good bit but it isn't going to be dead nuts perfect every time no matter what you do.

[ihatepickles]

When this topic comes up, it usually is a slightly inconsistent bullet length that's the culprit. If you measure OAL at the ogive, it's likely you'll discover you have very consistent lengths.

So the fluctuations aren't worth worrying about as long as you aren't getting rounds too long to feed in your mags. I use the UniqueTek tool head clamp and the difference (measured at the ogive) in my ammo was .003-.005 of slop before and .001 in slop afterwards. The clamp works but there's a debate about whether it's something that needs to be fixed though, I like having the clamp but for USPSA I'll concede it's probably not needed.

[Flexmoney]

Sounds like your are good, but just in case...make sure your lever arm has enough clearance to get full travel...that it's not hitting your bench at all.

[DougCarden]

Mixed brass is just that....a potpourii of whatever OAL the cases have ended up at whatever firing they have been through in whatever chamber they have been fired in. I bought 30K of once fired winchester, and they are all different as well.......

Take 5 rounds and mike them with the calipers, and there is your variation. You will end up with a majority of rounds near or at 1.150 with about a 0.005 variance either way. This is normal as long as everything is set up tight and screwed down on the press. There is some variation on the bullets too as stated above due to the ogive. If they case check and chamber then just shoot them and dont worry about it. I wish I would have had the forum to ask this question when I first started, as I went through the same thing!

DougC

[Nik Habicht]

If you're using the Dillon seating die, consider flipping the insert --- or checking to see which of the insert's sides fit your bullet ogive better...

[Mousekiller]

Thanks folks..

I knew i'd have some slop, but it just seems like it was excessive.. maybe what i'll do is shorten my load some and that way when i have longer seated bullets it won't matter, as it is with some of these they won't fit in the mag..

I really think it's the ogive of the bullet though, just looking at them some look pointier, lol.. more pointed ?.. then others.. also the actual bullet length is inconsistent.. Delta Precisions are supposed to be USPSA's "Bullet" .. so i hope others are fairing better then i am, and the case lenghts are, well.. a very mixed lot..

I've never really had this problem with my .40 loads though.. maybe the seating die is more forgiving on the actual shape of the bullets, plus i was using more truncated cone / flat point stuff..

hmm.. i may try different dies.. just for the heck of it.

Thanks again.. just trying to make consistent bullets..

Jeff.

PS: My arm on the press never comes close to the bench. but thanks for the suggestion.

[Cuz]

Mixed brass is just that....a potpourii of whatever OAL the cases have ended up at whatever firing they have been through in whatever chamber they have been fired in.

Doug,

Why does the length of brass affect the OAL of a loaded cartridge? The press shouldn't care how long the case is. The press goes up and down the same distance regardless of case length. On a longer case the bullet may appear to be seated deeper than on a short case, but the full length OAL should be about the same shouldn't it?

Maybe I'm missing something here???

-Cuz.

[bpowe]

Another problem leading to oal variation is the differing force necessary to size brass. When using mixed brass, some is harder than others (and some may have been fired in more generous chambers). I reduced my oal variations considerably when I began lubing the brass, even though I use a carbide die.

Bill

[HSMITH]

Using 550's without any extra clamping for the toolhead I see OAL repeatability inside of .0015" using a comparator and most times much less. I really don't believe the devices that lock the toolhead to the press do anything more than lighten wallets.

[DougCarden]

CUZ, my short answer is as it relates to repeatable accuracy. When I started trying to get 9x19 ammo to group at 50yds I talked to everyone that I could find that was loading ammo longer than I, including friends at Sierra and some custom pistolsmiths.

Using hollowpoints that fit into the seating stem to reduce the OAL variation I still had some major variations in OAL that could not be figured out, until I started miking brass that I bought all together so I would have the same case/headstamp, hopefully same OAL, etc.

I could not get the exact same OAL all the time, and when I checked the brass OAL and talked to people they told me that unless your brass is trimmed the same you will have minute variations in the OAL, which is acceptable.

Moral of my story was that I had a bad barrel.... which was not warranteed by the maker.....

I just wanted to add the info about the brass as well. The other posts covered the ogive pretty well and just wanted to throw in the brass, but you are correct. You should have a close to the same OAL with mixed brass unless you are loading them longer and have some bad brass(AMERC as example) that wont grip the bullet. I have loaded over 100K of 9x19, and I have seen some funky stuff with the cartridge, but if it gauges it usually shoots just fine for what we are doing for steel and IPSC.

Hope this helps someone,

DougC

[Cuz]

Thanks for the explanation Doug. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

-Cuz.

[Mousekiller]

I use "one shot" on all my cases.. makes it easier to use the press..

These dies are the Lee Carbide 4 die set, do any of the die sets or seating dies have a more forgiving seating stem ?..

I took this one apart and it seems pretty narrow..

I'm not looking for 50yd groups, althoug i have fired this ammo at 50yds at a popper, hit it a couple of times..

I know there will be slop, but i'd like to keep it to a minimum, around .003 per case if i can. I don't speed reload and see how many i can crank out in an hour, i'm more methodical then that.

Any other seating dies that work well ?

Jeff.

[HSMITH]

Check them with a comparator, my guess is you are within .005" now just as it is. The other thing to do is take the FCD out, if you get a thick case it will swage the bullet down and make the bullet longer. After the bullet is seated this can play hell with OAL. I have seen this happen with lead bullets, but never really payed attention with jacketed bullets. I ditched the FCD a long time ago, so I can't check it now either.

[CenTX]

I had this problem a while back after many thousands of very consistent OAL rounds. Gave Dillon a call, they gave you a list of things to check. I don't remember what my problem was, but OAL is consistent again. It can be a a lot of different things or multiple things "stacking" to cause the problem.

[Mousekiller]

I had this problem a while back after many thousands of very consistent OAL rounds. Gave Dillon a call, they gave you a list of things to check. I don't remember what my problem was, but OAL is consistent again. It can be a a lot of different things or multiple things "stacking" to cause the problem.

Think i'll give them a shout also.. just to see what they have to say..

thanks.

[JThompson]

The OAL of the bullet being inconsistent end to end shouldn't affect OAL length either, should it? I mean it's seating/locating from the top of the bullet, so it doesn't care if one is longer/shorter than the other. The way I'm thinking the only way that would matter is if the top of the bullet had an inconsistent shape.

I'm new to reloading, so forgive me if I've missed something here. Even if one case was longer than another it wouldn't matter for OAL, but only matter in seat depth. That is as long as were not talking a hell of a lot shorter or longer. Am I right in this thinking?

BTW Hello all!

Best,

Jim

Edited April 8, 2007 by JThompson

[L9X25]

Mouse,

Before you drive yourself crazy chasing parts, borrow 25 Zero, Hornady or Montana Gold projectiles from a buddy (any weight will do) and load them without changing anything on the press. If you notice that they are more consistent than the Precision Deltas, you have found the problem and you can stop playing with the press. I encountered the exact same problem with my 1050 and it was the inconsistency in the ogive of the Precision Deltas. If you are determined to use the Deltas, you can remove the insert of the seater die and reshape it to conform to the general shape of the projectile better, so that it contacts the projectile closer to the tip. That will help some but you will not likely be rid of the problem completely until you are rid of the Precision Deltas. Been there, done that.

Leo

[VoodooDaddy]

May I ask what powder you are using? Are your loads compressed? if so the neck tension might not be enough to keep the bullet in place. as the powder would push the bullet back up with different case with volume.

[Miranda]

Mousekiller,

I have the same problem.

All other bullets that I have loaded are consistant OAL.

I think it is the bullets.

I am hunting for an answer.

my next test was to try loading a few CBC cases I have.

They feel stiffer, so I think they may have a thicker wall

than the WIN cases.

miranda

[Mousekiller]

Well seeing as i have 2k of the Precision Delta's i may just have to wade through them and deal with it.

My loads consist of 3.3 Gr's Titegroup OAL 1.150, WSR primers, mixed brass and .380 crimp. Although last night i pushed it down to 1.145.. AT 1.150 this load made 130pf out of my M&P.. so at 1.145 i think it will get just a tad hotter.. i'll play with it more once i come up with a "answer"..

I don't think it compresses the powder, hardly looks like there is any in there when putting it in.

JThompson, I don't think your assumptions are wrong, although i don't consider myself and "expert".. novice more likely..

LX95 i think i'm going to do that, i don't really want to mess with the die.. although i may try a different make, i'm partial really to Redding pro's.. anyone know of a die with a seating stem for RN ?

I'm waiting on an answer from Dillon, although like i said to them i really don't think it has anything to do with the press.. i'm also considering calling Preciscion Delta.. i'd probably end up sending what i have back ... not sure i want to do that.

Last night i loaded 100 rds.. i went from 1.141 to 1.162.. I was trying for 1.145.. figuring if i had it a little shorter it would not be to bad and then it would keep the longer ones reasonable.. worked fairly well i only resized anything above 1.150.. and that was probably 15-20 rds out of the 100.. The Rest were between 1.142 and 1.150 which i could live with if all of them were like that.. It's the upper end that tends to bother me more.. not fitting in the mag, lower velocity over the chrono..

Any one know if PD's Lighter bullets are more consistent, shape wise..

My friend uses MG's and PD"s for his 40 and he's never had a problem with the PD bullets.. that's pretty much why i bought them.. decent price to

oh well.. nothing catastrophic, just more of an annoyance..

Any way to measure the Ogive consistently ?.

Mouse.

PS. Miranda if i figure it out at least you may have more information on fixing your problem..

Edited April 11, 2007 by Mousekiller

[L9X25]

Mousekiller,

I met the guys from PD at a major match and they were really nice guys. I really liked them and my shooting buddy and I ordered a few cases of their bullets to try out. The first thing I noticed was that there were a few projectiles that were not shaped properly. The noses were almost round (like a 230gr 45) instead of the usualy pointed 9mm FMJ. I spread a few out on the bench and noticed that there were various nose shapes within a few handfulls of projectiles. I called my buddy and he had noticed the same thing with his batch. Thankfully, my problem was the opposite of yours ... the defective projectiles loaded shorter than the normal ones so I did not have a problem with bullets too long for the magazines. I simply used the projectiles for practice and local matches.

I hope that they can get their quality control figured out, as I would live to buy from them again. Until then Zero has my business.

FWIW, I load 115gr with Dillon dies.

[Mousekiller]

Dillon's answer was a short one "sounds like ogive variations"

LX i did the same thing tonight and had my son look at them, unbiased opinion and welll his eyes are better then mine .. he said the same thing, some of them were "fatter" at the point then others and some were pretty skinny..

i loaded 200 tonight and had to resize 22 in the first 100 and 21 in the second 100, these were ones measuring over 1.153.. Nothing smaller then 1.145 though..

So .. well i think i'll just "deal" with it.. still may get the Redding pro dies though..

Thanks for all your input..

Mouse.

[Carlos]

Dillon's answer was a short one "sounds like ogive variations"

LX i did the same thing tonight and had my son look at them, unbiased opinion and welll his eyes are better then mine .. he said the same thing, some of them were "fatter" at the point then others and some were pretty skinny..

i loaded 200 tonight and had to resize 22 in the first 100 and 21 in the second 100, these were ones measuring over 1.153.. Nothing smaller then 1.145 though..

So .. well i think i'll just "deal" with it.. still may get the Redding pro dies though..

Thanks for all your input..

Mouse.

Good to see you last weekend. I set up Vlad's 650 with Lee dies, and I set up Russell's 650 too - as well as my own - with the Lee seater die. We all had OAL variations as you describe. BIG variations that should not be there. Vlad and Russell switched to the $60 competition seater die. I am now using an old RCBS I had layin around - I guess I am too cheap to buy the competition seater. Hate to say this, but that is the one Lee die I would replace out of that set. Hope to see you again soon,

Douglas

[HSMITH]

Mouse, quit guessing and wondering. Put a comparator on them and KNOW where the variation is coming in.

Truth be told, just shoot them. Load short enough where the longest one fits in the mag fine and go with it. Now you know why the price is what it is. The variation you are getting won't make one BIT of difference on the targets in practice or in a match. I know full well where you are coming from and I expect to see low variations as well, but if you segregate them and shoot groups you will see that the difference just isn't a problem. Shoot groups with them all at EXACTLY the same OAL, the put together 10 with the widest spread in OAL you can find and shoot them. It isn't going to make a difference at 25 yards or less.