2007 March Bod Meeting In Dallas

[Gary Stevens]

In 1983 I spent a week with the late great Col. Jeff Cooper. I remember him saying there are only three things a person must have in a pistol.

1. High Visibility sights, not necessarily adjustable, that are regulated to point of aim.

2. A good trigger.

3. A pistol that works.

I still believe he was correct.

[Barrettone]

If the goal of production is to allow box stock guns to compete, then we had better go all the way. There will be no grip tape, no grip sleeves, no replacement sights, no USER MODIFICATIONS AT ALL. In other words, buy the gun and bring it out to the range with only factory available and factory installed options. That is the only way to truly have a stock division, if that is the goal.

BINGO!!!

[Middle Man]

This division has ALWAYS been marketed as THE beginner division for USPSA.

You are wrong. It has never been marketed as a beginner division. It is not a beginner division.

+1 Shooting minor is not a fun prospect for a beginner, nor even an intermediate shooter on some days. Production is the most simple starting point for a 9mm pistol owner.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Middle Man

[Barrettone]

This division has ALWAYS been marketed as THE beginner division for USPSA.

You are wrong. It has never been marketed as a beginner division. It is not a beginner division.

As long as we cover our ears and sing "la-la-la", the problem isn't going to go away.

There is no problem to solve. You are in a very small minority that believes anything needs to be solved.

It is too hard for me to sell the sport to potential newbies as long as production guys are allowed to tinker. Sorry.

Who's asking anyone to sell anything? Either bring your gear and come shoot or stay home. Is there some extra effort required at your club to motivate people to come shoot?

At the risk of being completely sarcastic, I love how we're asked for our opinion, and then we're told "oh you're just the vocal people, everyone else disagrees with you silently so we're not using your input". This is utter crap.

If production was not meant to be an entry-level division, then why was it even conceived. Especially if we were going to make it Limited Light??? Make no mistake, the problem exists...but I guess you are beyond convincing. As for needing to "sell something", try running a USPSA program, and then come back and talk to me...it'll give you a whole new perspective. It is your attitude of "come shoot or stay home" that hinders growth. We need these new people to grow. Taking an attitude of: "I got mine, and I'm here now, so all you newbies can go to hell" is not condusive to that growth.

Cheers,

Mr. Vlassic

This division has ALWAYS been marketed as THE beginner division for USPSA.

You are wrong. It has never been marketed as a beginner division. It is not a beginner division.

+1 Shooting minor is not a fun prospect for a beginner, nor even an intermediate shooter on some days. Production is the most simple starting point for a 9mm pistol owner.

Uh...production makes you get your hits. Not a bad concept to teach a new shooter...

Edited March 7, 2007 by Barrettone

[Flexmoney]

We need a marketing strategy to combat these things. It is too hard for me to sell the sport to potential newbies as long as production guys are allowed to tinker. Sorry.

Jeff,

First...rule changes aren't marketing, but I get your point. I've been loud and clear with those above me that I want them to make it easier for me to bring newbies into the game.

Somehow...that works. In Ohio, with all the other divisions to choose from, 1 of every 3 shooters is a Production shooter. That is pretty huge.

Maybe that comes from a core belief. I truly believe the shooter can compete with whatever gun is in their hand. They just need a gun that fits...and hits where they aim. The good old saw...pick one and practice. With that core belief (shared by the Match Directors of our strongest clubs)...that is the message that gets through to the new shooters.

We aren't going to gain a talking point for marketing by having a 3lb trigger rule. IDPA doesn't have it. Nobody is calling their gear special.

What do we gain by giving up this freedom? What precedent does it set? Where does it end? (I know..that is a bit doom-n-gloom, but it's a serious concern.)

[ihatepickles]

If production was not meant to be an entry-level division, then why was it even conceived if we were going to make it Limited Light??? Make no mistake, the problem exists...but I guess you are beuond convincing. As for needing to "sell something", try running a USPSA program, and then come back and talk to me...it'll give you a whole new perspective. It is your attitude of "come shoot or stay home" that hinders growth. We need these new people to grow. Taking an attitude of: "I got mine, and I'm here now, so all you newbies can go to hell" is not condusive to that growth.

Well you're just full of ridiculous (and wrong) accusations, aren't you?

Edited March 7, 2007 by ihatepickles

[Middle Man]

If the goal of production is to allow box stock guns to compete, then we had better go all the way. There will be no grip tape, no grip sleeves, no replacement sights, no USER MODIFICATIONS AT ALL. In other words, buy the gun and bring it out to the range with only factory available and factory installed options. That is the only way to truly have a stock division, if that is the goal.

BINGO!!!

Ok, ok that voice in everyone's head just asked "What fun would that be?"

The genie has been out of the bottle for too long.

[Barrettone]

If the goal of production is to allow box stock guns to compete, then we had better go all the way. There will be no grip tape, no grip sleeves, no replacement sights, no USER MODIFICATIONS AT ALL. In other words, buy the gun and bring it out to the range with only factory available and factory installed options. That is the only way to truly have a stock division, if that is the goal.

BINGO!!!

Ok, ok that voice in everyone's head just asked "What fun would that be?"

The genie has been out of the bottle for too long.

You may be right...

[txaggie]

If this rule goes through, I will be putting my slicked-up G34 for sale. Probably to an IDPA-er, because for some reason USPSA will have more restrictive rules than IDPA.

Then I will be buying a DA/SA gun and I'll spend then bucks to trick it out, including a trigger job that will give me a single action pull that will make a 1911 shooter blush.

Then, when I go to a match, the newbies will still complain and they will still use the "I got beat because his gun is trickier than mine" EXCUSE.

Here is the interesting thing, instead of the newbies having to spend $200 on a trigger job, they had better pony up $500-$1k for a nice DA/SA gun that will have an awesome SA trigger so they can be competitive

I guess a box stock division would be interesting for about the first match, but then, what fun will that be??? But that is where the division had better be headed, because you have just put the Stock Glock and XD owners (actually any safe action/DA only pistol) at a distinct disadvantage. The rules will have made expensive trigger jobs for the DA/SA guns a must have and eliminated the other ones that we were trying to entice to play the game.

[Barrettone]

It is your attitude of "come shoot or stay home"

Well you're just full of ridiculous (and wrong) accusations, aren't you?

You made the statement...not me. Anyway, I didn't come here to make personal attacks or pick a fight...just express my opinion on the subject. Sorry it doesn't concur with yours.

Later

Edited March 7, 2007 by Barrettone

[ihatepickles]

It is your attitude of "come shoot or stay home"

Well you're just full of ridiculous (and wrong) accusations, aren't you?

You made the statement...not me.

Hell yes, come shoot or stay home. You're advocating we nerf down the sport to help those that will not help themselves regardless of how welcome we are. I won't be an apologist for USPSA, it's a fun game that isn't for everyone.

Newbies are welcome anytime at my club. If they don't stick around, it's because they don't like getting their butts whipped.

[herky]

Flex, that shot that hit the fly was just luck!

[Nik Habicht]

See that is where you are dead wrong. This division has ALWAYS been marketed as THE beginner division for USPSA.

Really? Funny, that's not how I remember it being marketed when I was being courted as a crossover shooter. The only thing I heard was that there was a division that my IDPA SSP gun would fit into. And I opted to shoot Limited Minor with my G34 at that first match, and for the next year, because Limited was where the competition hung out in those days. I only moved to Production when people like Dave Olhasso and Dave Marques started hanging out there on a regular basis --- so I could gage my improvement off better shooters.

We are CONSTANTLY telling people to go out, get a Glock, some kydex and a little 9mm ammo, and they can come play on a LEVEL playing field.

That's pretty much the gear I use for all the divisions that I shoot in. I did recently pick up my first .40, for Limited major.

Then, after they do all this, they realize that others have thousands more invested in their "production" rig, and they feel there is an inequity. We can argue until the cows come home whether or not that feeling is valid, but one thing is for sure...it is very real. As long as we cover our ears and sing "la-la-la", the problem isn't going to go away.

Including sights and tungsten guiderod, I have less than $150 added to each of my G34s. The only things I have spent thousands on so that I can trounce newbies are match fees and reloading components. But you're right --- it's the equipment that's beating new shooters.....

We need a marketing strategy to combat these things. It is too hard for me to sell the sport to potential newbies as long as production guys are allowed to tinker. Sorry.

Are Flex and I making it easier for you yet ---- or do we need to work harder? In my three years as match director, I've noticed that new shooters either get it (the appeal of this game) or they don't. Mentoring and coaching certainly don't hurt, (and we do a fair amount of that at my club) but some people come out once or twice, or even every month for a year or more, before they decide it's too hard, or too time-consuming, or too frustrating......

[Gary Stevens]

I think I'll add a new tag line.

"A Production trigger job with every membership"

[Singlestack Wonder]

Well........from an outside perspective, the USPSA rules are going in the right direction. Two divisions (one provisional) now mimick IDPA divisions. The BOD is certainly making progress.

[Nik Habicht]

There seems to be some confusion about what it is we do. The we references USPSA shooters. We try to solve shooting problems with a blend of technique, equipment and strategy, limited only by the constraints of the chosen division we compete in. Shooting an Open gun to it's max potential requires a different approach to all three than shooting a production gun to it's max potential.

We started out in 1976 trying to discover how to perfect all three --- the continuing evolution of the modern technique, the continuing evolution of firearms that brought us to the modern open and limited blasters, and the art of stage strategy.

Divisions only do two things, now that we've discovered that given balanced stages, and shooters of near equal talent, open guns rule the game, in terms of racking up points per second. The first is that they allow us to redefine the test:

Instead of just figuring out the best blend of technique and equipment and strategy to win, what if we put in additional restrictions eliminating comps, ports, and optics, limiting magazines to 140mm, and requiring .40 caliber to score major points? How does that affect technique, equipment and strategy?

What happens if we limit the magazine capacity to 10 rounds after the start?

What happens if we limit the competition to revolvers firing six shots before the reload?

What happens if we remove the single-action first shot, the mag well, and only score the division minor, while implementing a bunch of other restrictions? How will that affect the technique, equipment and strategy? Can a seven or eight shot revolver be competitive here?

Finally, what happens if we get a bit nostalgic, and decide to see what happens if everyone basically shoots the same gun, out of basically the same gear, and if we give the shooter a capacity/power factor choice that provides for an interesting trade-off?

We've just created our six current divisions. We're still all about the racing --- and about answering that question: How do I score the most points per second, within the restrictions for my chosen division? How do I adapt my technique? Modify my gun? Change my approach to shooting the stage? Isn't that our core principle? To find out what works? I believe that's the core of our freestyle sport. It's certainly what keeps me coming back week after week.....

Now all of a sudden we've got people talking about race divisions vs. carry divisions, or entry-level divisions. Where did that come from? We set harder practical shooting problems than any other major competitive organization I know of --- we don't have entry level divisions, nor do we need them. I think what we do best is to race, and to solve problems. It's what we should stick to --- trying to be the test bed for practical shooting and innovation.

The really cool thing about this sport --- other than the fact that guns go bang, and make holes in targets? That everyone who plays gets to learn about him- or herself. Shooters get to figure out what works best for them --- whether it's sprinting and hitting a bunch of positions, or walking and shooting on the move. Whether they're better off shooting left to right or right to left; going from the activator right to the mover, or picking up a static target or two in between. How they cope with things on a day when they can seem to do no right; to what they learn on a day when everything goes perfectly, and they still get beat or win. And on the coolest days, experience an altered state of consciousness, where they just notice and react. If we could give newbies that at their first match, on one stage, I think more would be hooked....

Oh, that second thing the divisions give us? The opportunity to try something different, to change things up, to learn something new, to play with new friends, or with old ones.....

[glock_40_caliber]

If the goal of production is to allow box stock guns to compete, then we had better go all the way. There will be no grip tape, no grip sleeves, no replacement sights, no USER MODIFICATIONS AT ALL. In other words, buy the gun and bring it out to the range with only factory available and factory installed options. That is the only way to truly have a stock division, if that is the goal.

BINGO!!!

Well, Jeff, its a good thing I don't use my department issued weapon to compete in production division then. After all, it has aftermarket sights and a hogue grip sleeve. But it does have an 8# trigger on it.

I give all of my (and the Mrs') competition Glocks the same trigger work, regardless of the division I shoot them in, for the simple reason we like the cleaned up trigger. I do know there will be two less production shooters next year if the minimum pull is set. And, since you said something about the B/C/D shooters, which we are, that would be two less at your matches, at least in that division.

[Gregory_k]

George put it best.

I can take a G17 frame, add an after market barrel, aftermarket slide, fl steel gr, have BoMars melted in the aftermarket slide, add a dovetailed front sight, install a G34 slide release and a G34 mag release and then go to town on the gripframe with a soldering gun to "stipple" the grip.

But I can't touch the trigger

production is one hell of a stock division.

[Flexmoney]

Flex, that shot that hit the fly was just luck!

Mike, that's not what the fly thought.

[Barrettone]

I guess we'll just have to see what the BoD does...Your not going to change my mind, and you all know what I'm rooting for...I'd like to see all the mods go away.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Barrettone

[GeorgeInNePa]

I guess we'll just have to see what the BoD does...Your not going to change my mind, and you all know what I'm rooting for...I'd like to see all the mods go away.

Jeff, wanting that is fine, but you would be better served lobbying the BOD for a new "stock"/beginner division.

It is simply not fair or right to make everyone change to accommodate shooters that may or may not even become USPSA members.

[Gary Stevens]

Since we are talking about an entry level division let me tell you all about my entry into IPSC. I started in 1978 at a club in Ohio that you could actually make a shooting appointment. Well since I had to drive 3 1/2 hours one way to get there I picked 1130 AM. So one Sunday morning I brushed off the trusty 1911 and headed out. I had read a bit about IPSC in the American Handgunner magazine, but had absolutely no clue about anything. Like most others, I thought I was "pretty good" with a pistol so how hard can this really be?

I arrived at 1115 AM. I got signed up, put my gear on (there really wasn't much to put on) and decided I would watch someone shoot. Much to my surprise about that same time, someone called my name. Thinking they just wanted to say HI, I answered and they said step on up here and get ready to shoot. Just my luck to go to my first match at a club that actually ran on time.

Well, they told me I was going to be shooting something called an El President or something like that. They told me what I was expected to do and how to do it. They even told me I had 10 seconds to do it in. Ten seconds, that really sounded like a long time.

The whistle went off, yes it was timed with a stop watch, and there was a whirl of activity some of which I was actually involved in. I remember target frames splintering, tree limbs falling, dirt clods flying through the air, and somewhere a woman calling loudly for her baby.

After what couldn't have been more than 3 seconds, although they swore it was 10, I heard the stop whistle and a weak sounding, shakey voice telling me to unload, which I did.

I didn't understand much about the scoring, but there was something about having more negative points than positive points, whatever that meant. The main thing I had completed my first IPSC stage and went on to fill the air with more lead that day, although not with too many corresponding holes in the target. Shortly after that I drove the 3 1/2 hours back home. I shot at that range for the next 2-3 years until they closed down from a lack of help.

After that experience, and still being here all these years later, I am not sure being thrown in the deep end right off the bat might just be the best thing.

A trip down memory lane.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Gary Stevens

[Flexmoney]

1978 ???

- The Eagles' "Hotel California" was nominated for a Grammy award

- Kenny Rogers continues his highly successful solo career with the single (and album) "The Gambler" and will go on to star in no less than 5 movies based around the song.

[Gary Stevens]

Yep. Remind me to tell you about the 60's someday

[Chuck D]

"I can take a G17 frame, add an after market barrel, aftermarket slide, fl steel gr, have BoMars melted in the aftermarket slide, add a dovetailed front sight, install a G34 slide release and a G34 mag release and then go to town on the gripframe with a soldering gun to "stipple" the grip.

But I can't touch the trigger "

If the above statement doesn't make clear and absolute sense to anyone that reads it....I don't know what will.

I can't recall a single issue that has created such anger among the membership like this damn 2008 rulebook. It's even more disheartening to sit back and watch USPSA come apart at the seams because we have to do "what's good for the sport."

Two things I wish certain members of the BOD would come to understand....

1. Once you create it and/or allow it....you can't undo it. Honor your commitments.

2. You keep members by keeping the rules simple, stable, and enforceable.

Good Luck.....

Edited March 8, 2007 by Chuck D