Gregory_k Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 250$ CDNN whole Kit or 215 for just the mag www.uws.com/CMAG/HomePage.html Check out www.ar15.com somone over there has to sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 Here's the thing about the argument of testing skills through standards. Using what I can watch as a reference, 2005 Open and Limited (pistol) Nationals = No standard exercises. 2006 Multi-Gun Nationals. No standard exercises. Where reloads a factor in the rifle? Ask Taran about Stage # 1, when he had to pull his 40 (or 45) round mag out and then insert a fresh mag. He chose to take the miss but mechanically, it was a factor as the mag didn't drop free and scoring it was a factor as what if he'd taken the shot? Mike Voigt on Stage #12 had to do a reload in the second rifle position. It wasn't a huge drop in time but using Matt Burkett and Taran as a frame of reference, neither did since they were using Beta's. Now Mike & Matt were shooting Open, but how much bigger of a dynamic would that have been if it was Tactical Division with 30's? Not WANTING to make a reload, you would have probably been more selective about the shots taken (i.e. slower split times). Yeah the shots/stage was such that a reload in the overall time wouldn't have hurt, but it would have been a factor. I just don't like the idea of seperating rifle divisions based on how many rounds their mag can hold. Again...we do it in every other division of USPSA. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 rich 2005 multi-gun nationals had a standards stage for rifle requiring mandatory reloads. I just think the rifle division should not be based on mag capacity because THAT IS NOT WHERE THE EMPHASIS SHOULD BE, we should be testing the accuracy ability of the shooter, not the reloading skill. Leave the reloading tests to the standards stages, just the way it is now. Why make something more difficult. Lets just go shoot. Brian E. Payne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 I'm not saying that it is THE test for rifle either. However, the point is to test the speed, accuracy and power of the shooter and their rifle. One of those tests includes understanding basic manipulation of the platform. While I'm not for advocating mandating reloads wherever the SD wants, I'm saying that there needs to be a greater seperation among the divisions. A 30 round mag isn't going to make that much of a difference given the round counts of the stages we shoot. However, having "only" 30 rounds will cut down on the spray and pray when we do have 20+ round stages at distance. What's better crankin' quick follow up shots downrange (see stage 1 & 2 at the '06 MG Nationals) or smooth well placed shots (Mike Voigt and Matt Burkett on Stage 2 at the '06 Nat's). It probably won't happen because it's easier for folks to just run 100's than just know how to aim. Speed is too large a factor at the club level to ever change peoples' minds. We need to figure out a way to encourage people to learn how to shoot. Just my thoughts. Oh well... Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 (It probably won't happen because it's easier for folks to just run 100's than just know how to aim. Speed is too large a factor at the club level to ever change peoples' minds. We need to figure out a way to encourage people to learn how to shoot). Well, that comment should get a few fires burning . From my point of view, I shot the long range stages at '06 RM3G w/ my beta just so I could concentrate on getting into good position, and then focus on shooting (and not missing) without having to worry about a reload. The 100 round mag allowed me focus on the one thing that is most important in rifle shooting. You stated it in your post. Getting accurate shots on targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 Brian, Yeah I'm sure that people will take it wrong. Obviously shooters like Trapr, Kurt and the like know how to shoot. Where I see the skill of shooting accurately being wasted is Joe Newbie loading up a Beta and dumping 40-60 rounds on a 25-ish round stage just 'cause they lack basic knowledge of shooting technique. Like I said. Oh well. Moderators....if you want, go ahead and lock this one up as I think the horse is WAY dead. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Rich, this horse may be dead and buried, but it seems to still seems to need a little dirt tamping now and then ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 From my point of view, I shot the long range stages at '06 RM3G w/ my beta just so I could concentrate on getting into good position, and then focus on shooting (and not missing) without having to worry about a reload. The 100 round mag allowed me focus on the one thing that is most important in rifle shooting. You stated it in your post. Getting accurate shots on targets. That is exactly what we are talking about. The big mag takes an aspect (actually, a few) out of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 250$ CDNN whole Kitor 215 for just the mag www.uws.com/CMAG/HomePage.html Check out www.ar15.com somone over there has to sell it. I found a whole kit for $239 plus shipping.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 From my point of view, I shot the long range stages at '06 RM3G w/ my beta just so I could concentrate on getting into good position, and then focus on shooting (and not missing) without having to worry about a reload. The 100 round mag allowed me focus on the one thing that is most important in rifle shooting. You stated it in your post. Getting accurate shots on targets. That is exactly what we are talking about. The big mag takes an aspect (actually, a few) out of the game. I thought this was a USPSA dicussion. That was the RM3G, a multigun rules(outlaw, if you wish) match. They could have forced a reload under thier rules had they wished. I guess they chose to make the stage about the shooting. Had it been a USPSA match and the MD wished to test reloading skills he could have written a standards exercise and included it in the match.-------------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 I guess the key concepts tend to get lost in the perspective we (each) bring to this... I shot...w/ my beta...so I could concentrate...without having to worry about a reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Rich, George, Flexmoney, You guys all make very valid points. I just wanted to voice an opinion from a "Joe Newbie". Living in Minnesota I have all winter to do nothing but dry fire practice and I have been doing that often. Included in this practice is reloading drills with the rifle. It isn't that I can not perform this skill with the handgun, shotgun, or rifle. I just hated to see another rule added to the books for fear the rules may not stop there. I hope to run into you guys at a major shoot someday, I am sure I can learn somethings. I do respect the knowledge of everyone on this board and I have learned a lot. I hope I didn't offend anyone in this discussion. Brian E. Payne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Sgt, Your bring up a good point... This discussion seems to have had at least 3 major prongs of attack: - Some logical debate - Some "I just don't wanna" (or do wanna) - And, as you mentioned, the politcal fears of a cascade effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Rich, George, Flexmoney,You guys all make very valid points. I just wanted to voice an opinion from a "Joe Newbie". Living in Minnesota I have all winter to do nothing but dry fire practice and I have been doing that often. Included in this practice is reloading drills with the rifle. It isn't that I can not perform this skill with the handgun, shotgun, or rifle. I just hated to see another rule added to the books for fear the rules may not stop there. I hope to run into you guys at a major shoot someday, I am sure I can learn somethings. I do respect the knowledge of everyone on this board and I have learned a lot. I hope I didn't offend anyone in this discussion. Brian E. Payne That's why I don't live in Minnesota anymore! Not enough shooting in the WINTER... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory_k Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 "Considering the amount of fancy equipment now seen in competition, some readers have complained loudly that the 'average guy' does not have a chance. It might be pointed out that this average guy never has had a chance. Competition is held to determine what is best, not what is average. And if all the equipment were standardized, the man who won would still not be in any sense average." Jeff Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I like the 20 Major, 30 Minor thing for Tac/Lim. Just plain makes sense to me, especially considering that the 30 round AR mag is the mainstay of every real world AR user out there. The comment about soldiers in the sandbox saying 30's are the way to go is where I see the logic here springing from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I have said this many times before. THis is a simple solution to a seemingly complex problem. Allow the WSB in a MULTI-GUN or 3-GUN match ONLY to specify that hte shooter MUST perform a MANDATORY reload at some point in the COF, AFTER the start signal and before the last shot. No location or shot count to be specified, EVER. Shooter can complete the entire COF, engae the last target and do a standing reload and fire one additional shot on the clock. Done. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 Do you guys wanting to mandate a 30 round limit have a foolproof way to make it work? Require RO's to count to 30, every time? Require purchase of special manufactured mags that are sealed and tamper proof(ha!)? Require everyone to use GI mag bodies, GI followers, GI springs. No mods or substitutions, all mags posessed at range by competitor to be torn down and inspected every match? If you can't enforce it, it is not a good rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Do you guys wanting to mandate a 30 round limit have a foolproof way to make it work?Require RO's to count to 30, every time? I can't see where that would be a problem ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Do you guys wanting to mandate a 30 round limit have a foolproof way to make it work? Require RO's to count to 30, every time? I can't see where that would be a problem ? I can easily ---- counting to thirty at a local three gun match, when there's somebody different on the timer and clipboard for every three or four shooters, what with having to watch out for safety issues, foot faults, etc...... I know the first thing I'd stop doing..... I'd much rather see the ability to start a competitor with a downloaded mag at the start. No counting involved, other than the first 2-10 rounds. Yeah some could go nuts, and specify 28 rounds for the first mag, but that would just defeat the purpose.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 All you'd have to do is count to one or two...after the reload. 32 round course...oh, he didn't reload ? Or, he missed and fired two make-ups on steel...so he need to reload at point X... The timer works pretty well for rifle too. How do ya count for pistol ? L-10? Production ? Single-stack ? Shotgun limit ? It is easier for me to count while RO'ing than it is for me to count while people talk to me when I am refilling my mags after shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 It's also really easy to just note where in the stage the reload happened if the stage has a linear flow and is mostly paper. On most CQ stages with a forward flow, this will pretty much tell the tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 So you figure everyone will reload after shooting that port, before the prone shots under the truck. No reload means more than 30. Not good enough. You mught have a guy that takes an extra shot or two at several arrays. Reloads at the same spot. Did he load more than 30? If you did not count while he filled his mags, you don't know. Restriction won't affect the match winner. He can reload, and does not take many extra shots. The honest guy in the middle of the pack is the one who gets screwed if someone cheats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Question: Is it capacity we want to control? Or are we looking to require the shooters to reload at some point in the COF? If the first, then it can be a bit problematic. If the latter, simply require a reload after the start and before the last shot. Simple and still freestyle. Shooter is entirely in control of where he will reload. Be it before firing a single shot or after the last target has been engaged. All he has to do is relaod and fire one shot. Easy for the competitor as well as the match staff. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Requiring a shooter to reload in a long course is not freestyle per USPSA/IPSC dogma. Can you require the shooter to do a reload in a long course in USPSA pistol? No... you can't. Why would it be all of a sudden OK and somehow be "freestyle" if you use a rifle instead of a pistol? As far as effectively policing a 30 round limit... I don't know if you realize it... but there are lots and lots of ways to cheat in USPSA. If a djckhead wanted to cheat... guess what? Chances are he/she will probably get away with it. A lot of the rules in place can broken. Should we get rid of all these rules because they aren't enforced and/or checked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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