uscbigdawg Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 So here's the logic behind it. In Limited we restrict the magazine capacities of the pistol to keep it more in line with a "stock" pistol. Obviously nothing that we shoot is stock, but hopefully I don't have to go on a huge ditribe over the appearance of the sport and to the new shooter and not needing a whiz bang, multi-$k setup in order to run. 3-Gun & Multi-Gun (using USPSA terms for a reason) is a completely different animal yes, but should still have some similarities in rules format. In the shotgun we restrict the number of rounds in the gun. Again, in the pistol we do too. It's just odd that we don't do it in the rifle. The thinking behind this poll is that in Limited and Tactical the magazines would be restricted to 20 & 30 round mags as these are equipment found "standard" on factory bought rifles. Too they are the standard for military, law enforcement and other competition platforms. The 40's, 45's, 90's & 100's would be solely for Open division since well Open is Open. Now before someone wants to say, well you're limiting the rifle to an AR based platform, etc. I understand that and do so completely. Given that the only other rifles I've seen used in Limited/Tac are large bore rifles or Mini-14's I'd say that initially the only answer I can immediately come up with is to have a magazine length restriction say based on a 30 round AR mag. Just a thought and curious to what my fellow BE.com family members think. Try to be honest and seperate ourselves from what we shoot and "fairness" amongst the divisions. I'm thinking for Joe New Shooter that has his box stock AR running 30's against someone with a Beta. Not totally fair since that mag cost about 1/3 of his rifle. Just doing this purely for academics and USPSA matches. For IMGA, run what ya brung is my opinion. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Fair is the weather in Corpus Christi.... Fair is where the merry go round lives. If someone has the bucks to play 3 gun they can buy a damned mag.... Or as you say Rich, practice those reloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Rich, I think it's a good idea for the non-Open divisions (Limited and Tactical) to be limited to 30 rounds (+1 is fine). The match director then has the ability to build a reload into the stage (without making the stage much longer than what we are used to). Capacity is a better limit than length, I believe. If someone has the bucks to play 3 gun they can buy a damned mag.... Or as you say Rich, practice those reloads. Merlin, I am going to suggest that that line of thinking might be coming from a perspective of the "big 3-gunners". The local...grass-roots..shooters aren't often loading up the truck and driving a more than a tank of gas to a match. These are the same shooters that would show to play, but they aren't going to have (nor know where to get) the latest greatest... USPSA 3/multi gun needs to focus on what will work at the local level, IMO. That is where we could see some growth...to feed the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) I agree with "the magician" the cost of a/some magazines is miniscule compared to the expense of going to a large match. HOTEL/4-5 DAYS, GAS/1000MILES, FOOD/5-7 DAYS, MATCH FEE, AMMO/750-1000 RDS, CAR RENTAL, SPENDING $$/ 200.00-500.00. Come on, 250.00 -300.00 for magazines is really not worth complaining about, its not a disposable amount, you spend it once, like paying for your guns. Get Real, from what i've seen and heard, most of the people who complain about not being able to be competitive without expensive gear use that as an excuse. The real reason is they got "spanked" by someone they felt they should have beaten, or they weren't as "GOOD" as they thought they were, and their EGO got bruised. Only its alot easier to make excuses, and say "its the equipment" than it is to go out and practice, when its raining, or 30 degrees outside. I could have easily taken the same approach, and QUIT!!!. I enjoyed myself, met really good people, and formed what I think, are lifelong friendships. Whats the cost of one of those????? Rant OFF.!!!!! p.s. if someone asked, i'd loan them my BETA, if they thought it would make a difference. Edited February 13, 2007 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 We either need to be a lot more active in fighting gun control efforts directed at AWBs and magazines over 10 rounds, or simply give up and limit capacity to 10 rounds. There are many efforts at State AWBs going on right now but I am not receiving any lobbying info/announcements - even though our community is about the only "sporting" community actually using magazines over 10 rounds and evil "assault rifles" (believe Service Rifle uses 8 + 2 & seemed to get by the last AWB w/o a problem. We should either be walking point on this one or start talking 10 rounds, not 20 or 30. Sorry for the thread drift, but I am sorry to say that I don't see good things on the horizon for us. Now, back to the poll on multigun rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Merlin, I am going to suggest that that line of thinking might be coming from a perspective of the "big 3-gunners". The local...grass-roots..shooters aren't often loading up the truck and driving a more than a tank of gas to a match. These are the same shooters that would show to play, but they aren't going to have (nor know where to get) the latest greatest... USPSA 3/multi gun needs to focus on what will work at the local level, IMO. That is where we could see some growth...to feed the sport. I do not want to give up the "big" mags... However - ....Damn. I hate trying to fly in the face of logic when it contradicts my personal desires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Trapr, I know what you're saying and agree to the extent that when I started, the 1911 I was using hammer followed, I missed steel plates a lot 'cause the sights were crap and the trigger was mushy and about 8#. I could have easily said to hell with it. That's not the point though. A Beta Mag is about 1/3 the price of a DPMS rifle. To me, this just shouldn't be a means of "resolving the problem" in USPSA 3-Gun matches. In IMGA it's totally different. There we run with very few rules, mostly guidelines and there by all means go ahead. Like Flex is saying we're lookin' grass roots level to start. From there, let the shooters dictate their own level of participation. My other concern is the degrading of our shooting ability in the sport. I firmly believe that the USPSA/IPSC shooters 10-15 years ago were better shooters than today. 50 yard standards WITH HARDCOVER was a standard affair. Do it now with full targets and spend about 30 minutes listenting to the whining and complaining. My first major was the 1998 Area 1 and we had Tuxedo Standards. V-shaped hard cover on 3 actuated 50 yard targets with transitions. Pretty rough with a fat front sight, .45 at 175 PF. Today we see a ton of stages with wide open targets, very little hard cover and no-shoots. Not just regionally, but all over. Since we can't mandate reloads within a course of fire (previously discussed before last shot fired perform a reload), then there has to be something to still allow for freestyle AND EQUALLY reinforce the basics of shooting. Standard exercises are not the only place for testing the basics/fundamentals. The basics/fundamentals should be tested to some degree on EVERY stage. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 This is old ground...really old. 3 gun is not cheap, cannot ever be made cheap and still remain interesting. Nor can everyone who yearns to race offshore powerboats afford to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I voted for the 20/30 option. But the wording is not exactly what I want. I want to allow people to utilize 40/45/Beta mags in Lim/Tactical as long as they are only loaded to 30 rounds. KurtM brought out a point on the 2nd hashing of this subject in that some guns come with 40 or even 45 rounds as "stock". By the letter (probably not intent) the 20/30 voting line does not allow these factory mags to be utilized. Hence... allow 40/45/Beta mags in Lim/Tactical. But only load them to 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Rich, its been previously stated that at the local level, you can pretty much do what you want for reloads. My statement was directed at the large level, Since you're refering to local, I stand by my last remark, "if someone comes up to me and would like to borrow my BETA" at a local level match( at a big match you guys can buy your own ) because they feel it would make a difference, I have no problem loaning it out, you break it, you buy it!! I cannot recall the last LOCAL match I shot where I used it. I've shot some relatively large local matches and not used it. (Tiger Valley / Nov06). I shot the AMU 3 gun, in Dec, 06 without my BETA Again, I think its a copout. Beginners are buying 50.00 scopes for 900.00 rifles, and they're working. There is no need to go out and purchase a BETA, so you can START shooting 3 gun!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 I'll state again...this is for USPSA/IPSC not IMGA and other non-USPSA matches. RS, Good point on the rifles that come with larger mags. So you and Flex have it with the restriction on the # of rounds in the gun rather than what the mag can hold/length. Shooter has to have some kind of a block in there though then 'cause you could "accidently" load more than 30. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockster96 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Heads up, run what you brung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 To hopefully understand where this would degrade to, visualize the ANYTHING goes to be a SJC Open Glock with a 33 round mag, me running my 15 round tube on 1100 and an AR with a Beta. Pretty ridiculous, but it's available. I'd like to think that my fellow competitors would like to make themselves great shooters and good equipment than good shooters with better equipment. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 How many of the voters actually shoot the USPSA MG Nationals? ... or shoot USPSA MG locally? ... or shoot USPSA Area level MG matches? on a regular basis. IMGA/Outlaw only shooters who vote on this is like me going to the IDPA forum and voting on an IDPA rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 How many of the voters actually shoot the USPSA MG Nationals? ... or shoot USPSA MG locally? ... or shoot USPSA Area level MG matches? on a regular basis.IMGA/Outlaw only shooters who vote on this is like me going to the IDPA forum and voting on an IDPA rule. Now now...IMO thats just not right. Only the good old boys have any say? Have to shoot USPSA Area level MG matches on a regular basis for your opinion to count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 No complaints or issues with Open and Limited Pistol Magazines No complaints or issues with Open or Limited Shotguns round count. What's the difference with rifles? Interesting topic I find myself wanting to agree with both sides . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 No No Merlin.........only master class and higher!!!! The difference is that more rules doesn't make it more fair, anymore than more laws makes it more safe. Today its mags, then its comps, then dollars, then............ I vote that since NONE of these guns come with optics, we should all shoot IRONS!!!!! how many people will be shooting AUG's We have enough rules, go practice or just have fun.........that should be your biggest decision. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Now now...IMO thats just not right. Only the good old boys have any say? Have to shoot USPSA Area level MG matches on a regular basis for your opinion to count? If the voters consisted of shooters who participate in any level of USPSA MG matches on a regular basis I'd appreciate the poll more than if the polls included voters who hasn't shot, not going to shoot, has only shot a USPSA MG match 5 years a go and hasn't gone since, etc. Don't you find it fundamentally wrong that someone who doesn't participate or isn't going to participate has a chance to determine the outcome of this poll? Is it OK for Canadians to come down and vote for the President of the United States? How about Mexicans or any other non-citizens? But anybody can vote on this poll. So my gripe doesn't really mean squat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bell Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I did not vote because I don't have enough knowledge of the issues relative to 3 gun/multi gun to know what I think is best. I do, however, have some concepts to bring to the discussion, ones that may influence opinons of those that do know the sport better. Everybody's new sometime. There are quite a few USPSA members that have never shot in a formal match. They're either in it strictly for the fun, strictly to compete with their local friends, or trying to get good enough to be competitive before they decide to compete. These people contribute a lot to the sport, financially and otherwise and, perhaps most important, are the competitors of the future. The point is, what is a trivial expense for the active competitor, who spends a thousand or more on a single match, is not so trivial for others who have not yet been bitten by the bug quite as hard as the pros. Just like with pistols, an entry level, near stock class may be very good for the sport and everyone in it. As already noted in this thread, Open is Open. One of the things that makes practical shooting as interesting as it is, is the need to plan the stage and plan for reloads. Perhaps some think it's best to run through a stage, shooting everything as it becomes visible, in the most direct and fastest route from beginning to end. More power to them. That's one of the reasons there is an Open Division. Others, however, find interest in the strategic planning that magazine limits impose on the competitor, particularly those who, for one reason or another, can't compete physically, but can compete intellectually. There's room for both. Just my $.02 worth. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS42 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I'm not sure that I understand the reasons behind wanting to limit mag size in limited/tac class. Some say for a more level playing field, others to force a reload during some stages. While I agree that there should be some way to make competitors do a reload, I just don't see a way and keep the freestyle. Maybe it would be time to go back to shooting some sort of standards. To me, saying a level playing field and making a limit on the rounds a mag can hold is not much different than saying that I have to use the flash suppressor that came on the rifle or an inexpensive muzzle break or a cheap scope or no scope because those didn't come on the rifles. If I run a box stock AR and compete in "C" class against someone that is beating me that has a tricked out AR with a muzzle break and an ACOG that also is in "C" class then maybe, just maybe I might be able to be gain some points by spending the money for upgrades. But I could probably do the same with more practice. As an aside, in 1969 I was one of the first to compete in Bullseye with an optic sight. I got told many times that I had an unfair advantage and people thought that it shouldn't be legal. My answer usually was so go buy a scope and see if you can beat me or practice more. I don't really think that we need to worry about the new shooter and his lack of equipment. Very few times does someone come to his first match with stock equipment and win. Mag size or lack of it should not make much difference in the outcome of the match. If you, for whatever reason can't/won't use anything over a 30 round, then if you don't want to be beat because someone used a Beta mag then you should maybe do a bunch more practice so that you get better hits faster. Whatever rules the rules are at any match that I go to are the rules that I go by. If I can't use a Beta mag that's okay. But then I just got one and haven't had a chance to use it yet. I'm not sure if I will as so far I don't like the way the rifle handles and I can do a reload pretty fast while I'm on the move. I need to do some more practice. Buy what you can afford, but before you spend lots of money on the newest, latest, greatest gee whiz, slam bang gadget, go buy more ammo and do lots of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory_k Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Don't firget trigger restrictions. 220.00 for a JP unit installed hell thats almost 1/3 the cost of a DPMS rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 When the tactical division was invented, I e-mailed my Area director and a couple of others with this thought in mind. Limit the Tactical divison to 20 round magazines. At the time, 20 rounders were the norm with ARs and 30s could be had but they were not "stock". I offered the idea that since it was a "tactical" division a 20 round limit would keep it to where skill with the rifle came first then "capacity" would not be an influence in any way. I also mentioned that those of us like me who preferred shooting the "big guns" would have somewhere to play(disclaimer here........I still shoot my M14 in tactical at times and don't have a problem with having 20 rounders to the 30s in the ARs, but that is me) and not be at a percieved disadvantage. Now remember, Beta mags at the time were quite outragous if you could find one at all. I also offered that the Limited division not have the magazine capacity limit since folks were already "limited" with shooting iron sights. Having said all that........with the rules as they are, and everyone already pretty used to them, leave it as it is. I personally think that in 90% or more of the stages out there that a 30 will do and if it is too tall, shoot 2 20s and reload (There is a place just learn how to do it). I'll keep on shooting my m14 with 20s..........In Tactical, and Heavy Metal, It matters not to me. Flame suit on..........I can stand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) Hopalong, Great idea on the Tactical division. Talk about a decision to make. 20 round .223 or 19+1 of .308 (current DPMS mags). Sweet. When the Tactical rules came out, I had just built my new Open rifle with the JP-BC comp. The question that I asked myself as I was looking at it, was what's the difference between this and a Tactical rifle? Oh...the dot on the forend and that I can use a bi-pod (which most of the time we don't need). My whole point is: No complaints or issues with Open and Limited Pistol MagazinesNo complaints or issues with Open or Limited Shotguns round count. What's the difference with rifles? Rich ETA: My JP triggers are parts only. I can install those myself. Edited February 13, 2007 by uscbigdawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bell Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I don't really think that we need to worry about the new shooter and his lack of equipment. Very few times does someone come to his first match with stock equipment and win. I'd be more concerned about whether he'll be back for a second one. Everything else I agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 attitude and ego, determine wether or not they'll be back, not equipment. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now