Jack Suber Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Does anyone know how the new TSA screening requirements will effect travel with firearms? In the past, when I travelled to matches, airlines required that I have my pistol(s) in a hard, locked case inside of my locked suitcase. I was required to declare that I had a firearm, demonstrate that it was unloaded, and sign a certification that the guns were unloaded. According to news releases I have seen, new TSA regulations will prohibit travellers from locking checked luggage so that the luggage contents can be inspected at random by TSA inspectors (the news releases I have seen said that the TSa is asking travellers not to lock their luggage so that they will not have to "forcefully" open the luggage). Has anyone seen or heard of any policy pertaining to travelling with firearms under the new TSA regulations? I have contacted the TSA requesting guidance but have not received any response. I guess, within the States, a person could ship their pistols to the match. However, for international travel, this could put a damper on things. I had planned to shoot the Pan Am in Ecuador this in September. I sure will not carry my STIs in an unlocked suitcase (especially on an international flight). Shipping to Ecuador would be out of the question because of import fees and the high likelihood of the guns disappearing from customs. These new policies might also cause problems for the Nationals. I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks, Jack Suber, TY30299 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 The TSA says not to lock. The FAA requires locks. I see a big inter-Departmental p*ssing bout, with us shooters stuck in the middle until somene quits or is told to knock it off. Sigh. Until then, I'm locking my bags with guns, and if they come through opened immediately filing for compensation. And transporting only firearms, cameras, etc for which I have receipts and proof of ownership. The law says someone is responsible, and when I find out who...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 can anyone say, "clear plastic, lockable gun case"? or "steal my gun please?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9supercomp Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 I talk to Alaska Airline the other day and they said same as before, cases with firearms must be lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted January 2, 2003 Author Share Posted January 2, 2003 Patrick, I agree, I would definitely document my costs for equipment I am carrying. But what would really tick me off is taking time off of work; scheduling a travel to a match; practicing and getting excited about the match; only to show up without a gun. What could you do? I doubt you could recoup the "other" expenses involved in travelling to a match. I sure would try, though. The whole things does throw a monkey wrench into things. Take care. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted January 2, 2003 Author Share Posted January 2, 2003 I just found the following FAQs on TSA's website (www.tsa.dot.gov) for your info: Q - Should I lock my luggage? A - In some cases, the TSA will have to open your baggage as part of the screening process. If your bag is unlocked, then TSA will simply open the bag and screen the bag. However, if the bag is locked and TSA needs to open your bag, then locks may have to be broken. Therefore, TSA suggests that you help prevent the need to break your locks by keeping your bag unlocked. In the near future, TSA will provide seals at the airport for you to use to secure your luggage as an alternative to locking your bag. Until that time, you may want to consider purchasing standard cable ties to secure your bags if it has zippers. Q - Can I still transport a firearm in checked baggage? A - Subject to state and local restrictions on transporting firearms, you may still transport a firearm in your checked baggage. However, you should first check with your airline or travel agent to see if firearms are permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply. Firearms carried as checked baggage MUST be unloaded, packed in a locked hard-sided gun case, and declared to the airline at check-in. Only you, the passenger, may have the key or combination. Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm, so long as it is not loaded in the firearm. Small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container ? securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amount of ammunition. In addition, small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container: "securely packed in fiber, wood, or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition." Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm, so long as it is not loaded in the firearm. Q - What happens if my belongings are missing from my bag when I arrive at my destination? A - TSA screeners exercise great care during the screening process to ensure that your contents are returned to your bag every time a bag needs to be opened. TSA will assess any claims made to TSA on an individual basis. I don't know if this makes me feel any better. Especially, the last sentence "TSA will assess any claims made to TSA on an individual basis." Take care. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMD Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 "In addition, small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container: "securely packed in fiber, wood, or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition." Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm, so long as it is not loaded in the firearm." So, this new agency allows ammunition in the same bag. I wonder what the FAA will think of that... as well as the airlines and the people at check-in. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 That text about travelling with gun/ammo is, for the most part, the same you'll see in a thousand places. As far as the locked gun in locked or unlocked bag, this is uncharted territory. It's probably going to take many instances of trouble before the overlapping bureacracies work out something useful. As a victim of TSA break-ins (both bag and gun case, see thread in Hate forum), I don't have any great ideas. I'm going to stick with the current procedure of locked within locked. The only thing I can think of is to make up some official-looking, threatening labels with which to seal my gun case. Although I don't know what good that will do; it just might prevent them from handling the gun, turning on the scope, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Hey Jack! Great to see you here! We met at the SC Sectional and VA Summer blast. Excellent question on airtravel. For background, do a search here on FAA and TSA - it seems TSA has violated FAA regulations on at least on occasion involving a forum member where a case was locked at check in TSA broke into the case WITHOUT passenger present (which is not allowed under FAA regs) then taped cheapo replacement locks onto the outside of the suitcase w/ a note saying sorry. Also, individual airlines vary as to how to/ how much ammo can be carried and TSA seems to have pre-empted those policies. I agree this is a concern and think we all would be well served by holding TSA's feet to the fire on this - lets make sure they preserve our right to travel w/ our 2nd amendment rights intact. Douglas Johnson TY 44934 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Based on the TSA (or America West) already breaking into one of my bags (see Hate thread), I plan to continue double-locking, and putting a pretty hefty lock on the gun case, along with a noxious orange tag that says "Federal law requires this case remain locked", along with a spare Firearms Unloaded tag. At least then the bag-grubbers may have to get a supervisor over for that. And as for the TSA's customer service-- it took them a week to return my call asking about the above break-in and it was only 'This is the TSA returning your call, call us back if you still want to talk to us". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted January 2, 2003 Author Share Posted January 2, 2003 Below is a responsse I received from TSA today concerning my inquiry: Thank you for your email message concerning the checked baggage screening process and how it impacts passengers carrying firearms in checked baggage. The requirements for transporting firearms have not been changed. Passengers must declare the firearm with the airline and adhere to airline policies and regulations. In accordance with 49 CFR Part 1540.111, firearms must be unloaded, packed in a hard-sided, locked case, and must be inaccessible to passengers during flight. Only the passenger holds the key to locked case. You may access this regulation on the website at http://www.tsa.dot.gov and click on Law & Policy, then click on Transportation Security Regulations, and scroll to the information in Section C of that page. We hope this information is helpful. In addition, we are sending the following general information about checked baggage screening that may also be useful to you. The Aviation and Transportation Security Act (ATSA) established the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) and mandated deadlines for enhanced security measures. Incrementally, TSA worked to meet its mandates and at the same time provide an increased level of customer service. As changes and enhancements to aviation security were completed, TSA publicized Traveler Tips to aid travelers with the enhanced screening process. To inform travelers of changes to the checked baggage screening process, TSA introduced suggestions that may assist travelers with the new procedures. TSA recommends that passengers leave checked baggage unlocked. Enhanced security measures require that all checked baggage undergo at least one form of screening. Hand screening of the luggage will be required to clear every alarm and baggage screeners may have to forcibly open locked baggage to complete the screening process. Travelers who lock their checked baggage may do so with the understanding that this may cause delays for themselves and/or their baggage. TSA is not liable for damage to locked baggage that screeners were required to open forcible. In some airports, the checked baggage screening process in integrated into the airline's baggage handling process. In this case, checked baggage screening is completed outside the view of passengers. In other airports, the checked baggage screening is completed in a public area of the terminal and passengers may be nearby when their baggage is screened. Once the screening process is completed, passengers are not permitted to repack or handle their baggage. You can go directly to TSA's travel tips online at http://www.TSATravelTips.us. The website has information about prohibited and permitted items, the screening process and procedures, and guidance for special considerations, that may assist in preparing for air travel. We also encourage you to visit our website at <http://www.tsa.dot.gov> for additional information about TSA. We continue to add new information and encourage you to check the website frequently for updated information. TSA Consumer Response Center -----Original Message----- From: jcsuber@bellsouth.net [mailto:jcsuber@bellsouth.net] Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 10:38 AM To: TSA-ConsumerResponse Subject: Question Concerning Travel with Firearms To Whom It May Concern: I would like to know what the policy will be concerning travelling with firearms. I am a competative shooter and have travelled in the past with firearms (handguns) in my checked luggage. In the past, airlines required that handguns be transported in a locked hard case inside my checked luggage. Upon arrival at the ticket counter I was required to declare my firearms and ammunition (ammunition was to be packed outside of firearm case in approved containers); demonstrate that the pistol(s) was unloaded; and, then sign a certification that the firearm was unloaded. The certification was to be locked in the hard-case with the pistol. My luggage was then to be sealed with a lock so that noone could enter it and steal the firearms. I am concerned about the new travel requirements. Specifically, I am concerned about travelling with my firearms in an unlocked suitcase. I have reviewed the TSA's website and have not been able to locate any information concerning travel with firearms. Will travel with firearms be prohibited on commercial airlines? What is the TSA's policy regarding travel with firearms? I would appreciate any feedback and guidance you can provide me. I have already made plans to travel via air to several tournaments this Spring and Summer. Before I purchase airline tickets, I would like to know if I will be restricted from travelling with firearms. Thank you. John Suber, Section Coordinator United States Practical Shooting Association Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted January 3, 2003 Author Share Posted January 3, 2003 Doug, Good to hear from you! I hope you had a great Christmas. What are your plans for matches this year? Looks like I will be doing the Florida Open, Florida State, SC SEctional, NC Sectional, Summer Blast (if its still on), Area 6, Tex Limited and the Pan Am. I hope we can shoot together at some of these. How's Phil been doing? He never writes or calls.....Anyway, take care. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 What about "handcuffing" your locked firearm case to your luggage? Many of the big "rolling duffle bags" have a nice big frame inside of them which you could use to secure the case to. These are also great to travel with because you can pack a TON of stuff in them. Sure, this isn't going to stop anyone but it might make it enough of a hassle that they will pick on someone else. FWIW...the TSA breaking into bags started, at least in some airports, last summer. I had a suitcase where the locks were cut off and left inside the bag. Luckily, nothing was damaged or missing. I called the airline (Northwest) and they admitted that they had probably cut the locks off and said I could file a claim for the loss. The locks were $3 cheapies so I didn't bother. Now I just use cable-ties. Cheers! Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I built a 'Guncart' for the 2001 Nationals, then took it down to the airport and had Southwest, United and American airlines actually look at it to see if it was suitable for transporting my open and limited guns. All 3 airlines said it was fine because it didn't exceed the maximum size or weight limits, had metal hinges and sides, AND had a full length locking bar. Southwest and United said they would consider it as a locking guncase and not as luggage. Then Sept. 11 happened and I drove to the Nationals instead of flying. I guess I better make another trip to the airport and see what the current opinions are about my guncart. Here's a picture of what I'm talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkgsmith Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Just FYI for anybody interested. Carpenters Insurance Agency (check NRA magazine) offers stated value insurance on firearms. They will cover them if lost,stolen or damaged during transport, aka your friendly skies. The cost is cheap, something like 3 bucks per 100, for a three year policy. I don't leave home without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPiatt Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 One point to remember is, any airline can make the FAA regulations MORE restrictive if they choose. That's how you see the variations between airlines. Example, some airlines require that you actually show them the guns are unloaded at check-in and some do not, only requiring that you sign the tag. My adivse is to contact your airline directly and ask for their specific regulations. The initial post mentioned shipping your guns ahead of time to the match location. As far as I know you cannot legally ship your guns to yourself. You can only ship them to an FFL holder. I do not hold an FFL but someone who does may want to confirm this info. What I do on a normal basis is ship my ammo to myself, at the hotel I am staying at, ahead of time. One less thing to haul thru the airport, less questions at check-in, and no chance of going over weight w/ ammo. BTW, FAA states only 10 kilos of ammo, in ammo containers, NOT BULK is allowed. Some airlines say 10 pounds, so like I said, check with the airline you are using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 good post, Bruce, except one thing: There *IS NO* FAA regulation on ammo quantity!!! Many airlines want to make you believe there is, but for domestic US flights, they make up their own ammo quantity regulations. You are probably confusing this with international travel, where indeed there is an 11 lb strict upper max imposed by IATA and ICAO (see their web sites iata.org and icao.int) --Detlef (Edited by Detlef at 9:13 am on Jan. 5, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Just as a data-point, Alaska allows up to 50lbs of ammo in checked luggage.... or, at least, they did last year. Bruce (the other one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Hey Jack! I plan on doing lots of local competitions up here in Area 8 and certainly the Summer Blast (if its still on), and I'd like to head south for the NC and SC sectionals. As for the Tex Limited, I heard its a fantastic match and maybe that needs to get done this season too. The Pan Am? I remember you had plans to shoot taht in 2002 - did you make it? If you go again, LMK, I might just join you!. As for Phil, I'm not surprised to hear he never writes or calls, he is up to his eyeballs with work! I have been helping out at his new shop, Shooters Paradise in Woodbridge, VA. Besides renovating and running a combination training center, indoor range and gunstore/pro shop, Phil is still working full time for Capitol Hill Police while trying to also shoot a full competition schedule. I don't know how he manages it all; I know I couldn't do it - of course everyone knows Phil does some things much faster than anybody else can. Will be shooting limited w. the .45 again and maybe some production w/ a new G-17 if my girlfriend does not take to USPSA competition (she said something about wanting to paint the Glock PINK!). Anyway, drop me a line before you head north. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 Doug, I shot the Ecuador Open (their national championship)in June. It was a fun match. I went with two friends from South carolina and we had a ball. They treated us like royalty. My brother lives there as well as my Mom's family so we had lots of people to take care of us. After the match we went trout fishing in the mountains for 3 days and then went dove hunting. It was tough but someone had to do it....The PanAm will be an even bigger match and will be at Salinas. Salinas is a coastal City with a natural harbor. Great nightlife and awesome off-shore fishing. So, I am planning on making this trip provided I can get the guns there. BTW, I took my old STI Eagle and sold it for $2800 with 5 mags. Paid for my trip and my new Edge. I also sold a Glock 35 I won for $1000. If you are interested, take a look at http://www.ipscecuador.org. Yes, you are right about Phil. Never underestimate him. I remember at the 2002 Area6, Frank G. had an awesome run on a stage and as he walked back, he told Phil, "You'll never beat that." Well, you know what happened. Phil ended up winning the stage and the match. If you talk to him give him my regards. Take care. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 thread drift?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 BTT. Thread drift? OK, fair enough. Getting back to FAA regs vs. TSA procedures (does TSA even have proposed regs yet? Where in the C.F.R. or F.R.??) What about a Kryptonite type "U" lock through the hole in an old style Glock tupper ware container? My point is, what about something thwey could not remove w/ just a bolt cutter? Something to force the issue and bring out as manager who we could confront w/ the FAA regs and point out that TSA/ the airlines are in violation of FAA regs, that FAA WILL be involved through the airport administrator, that common sense would dictate that an unsecured weapon in a remote location of the airport was counter to airline security, and that TSA had better cease-and-desist IMMEDIATELY!! I like the idea of the large warning sticker on the inner container - something to really make TSA/the airlines re-consider their current procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 i got a question. isn't most luggage locks very similar? i have on key for all my samsonite luggage and aren't these keys readly avalible? i'm sure if the thieves have the keys so can the luggage inspectors. so i will probably lock my luggage when i fly. lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I just had to go through this crap! This weekend I flew with gun to AZ. I declared my gun as usual to agent. She then called a TSA geek to come "inspect" my gun. He very rudely grabbed my hardsided pistol case (inside a hard sided suitcase) and began touching (I mean inspecting) all the parts of my field stripped Glock. I asked him what the deal was? He said this was due to the new policies. In front of 20 people he asked me to go with him while he carried my gun case to another area for further inspection. I was getting more pissed by the minute! At the end if this ridiculous "inspection" ordeal, the subject of unlocked baggage came up. I didn't want to check an unlocked bag that has just been so publicly highlighted as having a FIREARM INSIDE!! I asked that after they look in the bag behind the closed doors, that they scramble the combination lock on the outside of the suitcase. When the bag arrived at my destination, the combination was infact scrambled and the bag was therefore locked. Leaving the AZ airport, there wasn't a TSA agent available to inspect my gun at the counter (ya, some policy), so they wanted me to hang out in the check-in area for 15 or so minutes incase the TSA guys behind the counter wanted to look in my bag. 10min later an agent came out to ask me the combination because they now wanted to open the bag. I gave him the combo and asked that they scramble it after inspecting it. They did. This is how I see it: For our safety, I can see inspection of checked bags. That just means I won't put anything of value in checked bags. Guns on the other hand are required to be in checked baggage. TSA must not allow unlocked bags containing guns to be loaded by handlers onto an aircraft!! Because of the nature of the contents, the bag should be inspected with owner present. The bag should then be locked and remain locked. How are we going to do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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