Carbine Competion Question For Ar Style Carbine?

[bigb77803]

I am interested in getting into shooting and purchasing a Bushmaster AR .223 for competion. My question is does the barrell length have anything to do with the rifle making major or minor class or is it just the ammo?

I am interested in shooting the Bushmaster 16 inch barrell so I am able to get through stages easier. I know it won't be accurate at 500 yards but I don't plan on shooting it that far. I also don't want to purchase a gun that won't make major class. I was pointed to a earlier discussion about the 16 inch or 20 inch barrell. It was all excellent information but didn't answer my question about power for shooting USPAS/IPSC.

Any info would really help.

Thank you

[Scout454]

You can not make Major with a .223.

You can make Minor and most factory ammunition will make minor in a 16" barrel.

[George]

There really is little difference in moving a 20" versus a 16" through stages. The idea that a full length AR is un-handleable is a myth and I will prove it to anyone who wants to run a CQ stage with their 16 versus me and my 20.

That said, the need for a longer bbl to make the minimum PF for minor is less now that it has been reduced to 150. Most factory ammo makes that out of a 16" nowadays. Always test though as YMMV.

Major is nearly impossible for a .223. Minor (150) is all your gonna get with the mousegun ;-) (edited to reflect Patricks caveats on .223 major)

[Patrick Sweeney]

Major is not impossible for a .223. All you have to do is use lathe-turned steel cases, loaded with Semtex, and solid bronze bullets, also lathe-turned. I mean, gee, a 75 grain bullet only has to be going 4267 fps to make it!

Oh, and you have to spot-weld the primers in place, or they blow out and tie up the gun.

(It's late, I'm tired, and my feet hurt from walking the SHOT show. But I'll bet you could find at least one guy who was at the show who earnestly believes he could make Major with a .223!)

[Merlin Orr]

.........you have to spot-weld the primers in place........

I have a couple of pistol frames I need to send to your welder..... He must be a dandy!

[ErikW]

Patrick, do you recommend Semtex A or C?

[Flexmoney]

bigb77803,

Don't mind these guys. They likely missed that you were new and they got caught up in...whatever it is they got caught up in.

I'm not the one to be answering your question, but I'll throw a few bits out there and if you don't get what you need...let me know and I'll dig some more info up for you.

As you may have figured out, Major pf in the 223 AR isn't happening. The AR is a Minor pf gun...and everybody is cool with that. It's still the overwhelming choice.

So, the question is...

Does a 16in gun give up enough velocity to matter, compared to a 20in gun ?

Now, I thought I recalled a few old threads around here where they talked about 16in guns being kinda close to going sub-Minor with some factory ammo. They guys ought to be able to answer that question for you.

Perhaps another velocity consideration...will the 20in gun give more zip to handle long range steel ?

Accuracy-wise, I recall arguments for barrel stiffness over barrel length. Sight radius can be a bigger factor.

Where do you plan to shoot ? That might help answer some questions too. If you are just going to be shooting at a local club that runs matches on pistol courses, then a 16in gun seems like a fine choice.

[George]

You want the skinny, here it is!

16's do not lose enough velocity to matter unless your ammo is wimpy enuff in the first place to drop under the minor floor (150). You should always run ammo over a chrono to make sure it has the V needed. A 55gr needs to go 2750 + to make minor but that is too slow for a 55 anyway. More like 2900+ is what you want to see and most likely you will get faster than that from "most" factory 55gr ammo. I like to see 3050 to 3100 minimum on a 55er.

The V loss from a shorter bbl will not be that great anyway. Probably on the order of 30-40 fps per inch at max and maybe evenn less. Call it 120-140 fps max drop for a 16er compared to a twenny' Not that big a diff if the fodder is starting off pretty hot. (at least 3100 fps in a 20).

If your bbl is a 1:9 twist, shooting a heavier bullet will get you a better PF, but you may, or may not get as good a result as with a 55er depending on whether yourt bbl likes the heavier projectiles. Testing is what will tell you this.

As long as you are launching a 55er at 3050 fps from the muzzle of a 16er, you are gonna' be fine on reactive steel downrange.

The shortened sight radius on a 16 is a real bummer situation if you plan on running iron sights. A twennny' is way better for iron sights PERIOD.

The mid length gas system on a 16er is a little harsher than a full length gas system on an 18, or 20, but if you are new to AR's you may not even notice this. No big thing really, just a fine point for later when you are ready to get into a highly tuned race rifle. For now a basic AR will be the best starting point and the cheapest one too.

I still feel that there is no practical difference in running a 16 versus a 20 as far as handling goes. I don't give up anything to anyone with a 16er when I run my 20's on CQ stages. Only your ability is gonna' matter here, not the gun! Almost no GM level shooters run 16's. The folks who feel that a 16 helps shoot CQ stuff faster are "typically" the folks finishing at the middle (or bottom) of the pack who are looking for a way to the front other than through lot's of practice. There is no such thing! ;-)

Hope this helps.

Regards,

[Jaxshooter]

My recommendation would be an 18-20 barreled rifle with a full length gas system. I don't know if Bushmaster makes an 18" or not. If not you can always change the barrel from 20" to 18" later.or cut down the 20". You will be better off with the full length gas system.

[Mick]

"Almost no GM level shooters run 16's. The folks who feel that a 16 helps shoot CQ stuff faster are "typically" the folks finishing at the middle (or bottom) of the pack who are looking for a way to the front other than through lot's of practice. There is no such thing! "

Well, not entirely true....All I shoot is 16" guns and would go shorter if I shot the company's guns. We do CQ stuff indoors in the typical house floorplan and the shorter guns have an advantage. 16 years ago when I went through our basic SWAT school I was saddled with a 20" gun. It was OK for scenarios at 6 flags outdoors but when we inside I was at a disadvantage and picked a 14" gun. Now the entry guys have abandoned the MP5s for the shorter 10.5" M16s.

At the TX 3 Gun last year it wasn't the shorter AR that hurt me, it was breaking a shotgun.

On the really close quarter stage I shot one of the fastest times with a 16" gun and two 20 round mags (with a reload). It required getting low and tight in a corner and the long gun was a problem.

But then, I carry a 16" gun and practice with what I'm going to "play" with.

Lots of the local "3 gun" matches are nothing more than pistol stages with a rifle.

I ran a 3 gun for a while that ALWAYS had 12" rifle steel plates out to 250 yards.

The short gun was no problem with 55 grain bullets, I used South African ball at the time which is really 5.56mm stuff unlike the slower .223 stuff. I can't shoot the iron sights as well now since I can't see them but when I didn't wear glasses the short sight radius wasn't a problem with a smaller .050" front sight. When I was 45 I shot iron sights on those 250 yard 12" plates without a problem.

All I've ever used is 16" (or shorter) COLTS with JP stuff. Look at most of the soldier's guns in the current war zones, most want the shorter gun! Several of our guys came back from Iraq and Dyncorp and were very pleased with the 14" M4s they had.

They did question the M885 ammo on occassion....

Buy what you like and is easy for you to handle. Practice and learn your ammo's dope.

I would recommend a heavy 1/9" barrel, we don't like out 1/7"guns no matter what barfrel length

[benny hill]

Mick, I alway's knew mine was longer than yours.

[Mick]

Mick, I alway's knew mine was longer than yours.

I'm taller and younger!

[Chuck Anderson]

The 16" is faster for CQB work than the 20. Without question. I've used both and for a very few CQB stages the 16" is quicker. And George, I'll take you up on that.

As far as what I use for competition, I've got a 20" JP, switching to an 18" JP soon though. The trade offs for me are worth the slightly slower CQB performance. I like having the full length gas system and forend. The accuracy in my gun is also great. Every now and then someone will say you don't need a very accurrate rifle for this game. We only shoot 10" plates at 350 yds. So as long as it shoots within a couple inches at 100 yds great right? Mine shoots about 1/2 inch which give me a lot more wiggle room and the ability to be a bit sloppier when I get to those long range stages.

[Bear1142]

+1 on Lawman's post.

Erik

[George]

I am certain that any speed difference experienced using a short AR on CQ stages has everything to do with manipulating the bbl length into/around ports rather than with the weight and pointability.

Speed of shooting is not the issue of this comparison, it's handling the length in tight spaces. If the stage doesn't have tight corridors with tiny ports on either side there will be NO practical diff using a 16 versus a 20. It's all about turning in tight places, not how fast anything can be shot and transitioned. Even then, I don't see Burkett, Voigt and Miller losing a step to anyone with their twenny's on any kind of stage.

As far as top dawgs shooting shorties, we have now heard from almost all of the few folks who do ;-)

Hey Chuck, howzabout a small wager on the outcome of any CQ rifle stage at the next match we are at together (A1 MG, or maybe Tulsa)?

[Mick]

"Speed of shooting is not the issue of this comparison, it's handling the length in tight spaces. If the stage doesn't have tight corridors with tiny ports on either side there will be NO practical diff using a 16 versus a 20. It's all about turning in tight places, not how fast anything can be shot and transitioned"

Exactly.....

[Chuck Anderson]

I am certain that any speed difference experienced using a short AR on CQ stages has everything to do with manipulating the bbl length into/around ports rather than with the weight and pointability.

Speed of shooting is not the issue of this comparison, it's handling the length in tight spaces. If the stage doesn't have tight corridors with tiny ports on either side there will be NO practical diff using a 16 versus a 20. It's all about turning in tight places, not how fast anything can be shot and transitioned. Even then, I don't see Burkett, Voigt and Miller losing a step to anyone with their twenny's on any kind of stage.

As far as top dawgs shooting shorties, we have now heard from almost all of the few folks who do ;-)

Hey Chuck, howzabout a small wager on the outcome of any CQ rifle stage at the next match we are at together (A1 MG, or maybe Tulsa)?

I absolutely agree that it's all about manipulation. I thought that was kind of obvious. Otherwise the 16 would be quicker overall, which it's not. But there have been a few stages with those tight ports, 05 MG in Reno and the 06 Ironman that would have benefitted from a stubby tube. I have seen the big boys lose a step or two on those stages. But like I said the pros outweigh the cons using the longer tube. I won't be using a 16" but I should have my 18" gun by this season. I can probably bring my work 16" to the A1 MG and shoot it after the match if that would work.

[George]

Let's see if any match we wind up at together in the near future has a stage that would apply, then we can settle on some mondo wager amount, like a buck or maybe even loser buys lunch. Life's no fun without a little action ;-)

[Chuck Anderson]

Let's see if any match we wind up at together in the near future has a stage that would apply, then we can settle on some mondo wager amount, like a buck or maybe even loser buys lunch. Life's no fun without a little action ;-)

Works for me.